HS2 General Thread (All Phases/Discussion) - Page 1136 - SkyscraperCity
 

forums map | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > European Forums > UK & Ireland Architecture Forums > Transport, Urban Planning and Infrastructure

Transport, Urban Planning and Infrastructure Shaping space, urbanity and mobility


Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 8th, 2019, 08:24 PM   #22701
Aylett 67
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,336
Likes (Received): 661

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northumbriana View Post
I'm sure I've seen on a suggested service plan for HS2 (that line chart with horizontal grid lines representing each station and a circle representing each service calling at that station or a lack of a circle to indicate it passing through) that Carlisle will be missed by all London HS2 services. Just a Birmingham HS2 service which splits at Lockerbie to reach Glasgow and Edinburgh I think.

That seems very similar to Durham which gets no London HS2 services but gets one from Birmingham and retains one classic London service. So presumably Carlisle will still have a reduced classic link to London. But Carlisle has a similar population to Darlington which will be getting a London HS2 service.

Whether any of that is official though remains to be seen.
A shame as Carlisle is a more important station than Darlington.
Aylett 67 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old December 8th, 2019, 10:11 PM   #22702
Northumbriana
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 535
Likes (Received): 239

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylett 67 View Post
A shame as Carlisle is a more important station than Darlington.
I'm not sure how that would ever be determined. But according to their respective wikipedia pages Darlington had about 2,325,000 passengers for 2017/18 compared to Carlisle's 1,967,000. I'm aware of how reputable a source wikipedia really is so I await any correction. But it seems like they're both of similar importance. With Darlington presumably getting many of its passengers using it as a rail hub from the Tees and Wear Valley's. And Carlisle getting some of its passengers from small towns and villages near by, Dumfries but presumably most from Carlisle itself.

I would argue both Darlington and Carlisle are not in 'Plan A' for high speed rail, but they should probably both be in 'Plan B'. Although if HS2 services ever directly reach Middlesbrough Darlington's role might be diminished where as Carlisle has no rival to its regional importance near by.
Northumbriana no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2019, 01:46 PM   #22703
cle
Registered User
 
cle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,714
Likes (Received): 827

You'd not land a London-Glasgow plane for either market, so why stop a London-Glasgow high speed train at either.

Look at the French stopping patterns for how this should be run, city-pairs, with the odd add-on.

London-Glasgow flights are the competition here, and the objective is market share on that. Not accelerating 'fly-over' mini railheads - which are already well served enough, and crucially, don't have the competition of air so why bother, people have no choice.
cle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2019, 03:33 PM   #22704
Vulcan's Finest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: None these days.
Posts: 9,067
Likes (Received): 2812

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northumbriana View Post
I'm not sure how that would ever be determined. But according to their respective wikipedia pages Darlington had about 2,325,000 passengers for 2017/18 compared to Carlisle's 1,967,000. I'm aware of how reputable a source wikipedia really is so I await any correction. But it seems like they're both of similar importance. With Darlington presumably getting many of its passengers using it as a rail hub from the Tees and Wear Valley's. And Carlisle getting some of its passengers from small towns and villages near by, Dumfries but presumably most from Carlisle itself.

I would argue both Darlington and Carlisle are not in 'Plan A' for high speed rail, but they should probably both be in 'Plan B'. Although if HS2 services ever directly reach Middlesbrough Darlington's role might be diminished where as Carlisle has no rival to its regional importance near by.
From memory, Darlington - London was quoted by HS2 Ltd several years ago as generating 507,000 annual journeys to/from London. This VT press release from 2017 - http://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/virgint...trains-1930506 - states 159,000 from Carlisle. So in fact Darlington is far more important in traffic terms, even though Carlisle is a hub for a wide area.

Darlington will be served by direct London trains when phase 2b is completed - while I am certain that operating logic will mean the Scottish services will need to stop and split at Carlisle. It is the logical point with a very low speed limit. So both stations will be served.
Vulcan's Finest no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2019, 03:48 PM   #22705
Vulcan's Finest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: None these days.
Posts: 9,067
Likes (Received): 2812

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugster View Post
If it winds you up - I’ll keep referring to it as Totton then
Doesn't wind me up in the slightest - but it does help to show the other forum members just how little effort you make to get the basic facts right. Then they can form their own judgement as to the value of your thoughts and arguments about HS2. Or lack of.
__________________

NCT liked this post
Vulcan's Finest no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2019, 06:18 PM   #22706
Northumbriana
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 535
Likes (Received): 239

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
From memory, Darlington - London was quoted by HS2 Ltd several years ago as generating 507,000 annual journeys to/from London. This VT press release from 2017 - http://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/virgint...trains-1930506 - states 159,000 from Carlisle. So in fact Darlington is far more important in traffic terms, even though Carlisle is a hub for a wide area.

Darlington will be served by direct London trains when phase 2b is completed - while I am certain that operating logic will mean the Scottish services will need to stop and split at Carlisle. It is the logical point with a very low speed limit. So both stations will be served.
I'd guess though at some point either HS2 tracks will bypass Carlisle or a stand alone bypass would be constructed. That or the through tracks and approaches are upgraded to increase passing speeds.
Northumbriana no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2019, 07:47 PM   #22707
Rugster
Registered User
 
Rugster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 1,035
Likes (Received): 374

HS2 General Thread (All Phases/Discussion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest View Post
Doesn't wind me up in the slightest - but it does help to show the other forum members just how little effort you make to get the basic facts right. Then they can form their own judgement as to the value of your thoughts and arguments about HS2. Or lack of.


You must really value my thoughts as you comment every time I post ffs - obsessed or what??

Last edited by Rugster; December 9th, 2019 at 08:17 PM.
Rugster no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2019, 08:52 PM   #22708
cle
Registered User
 
cle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,714
Likes (Received): 827

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northumbriana View Post
I'd guess though at some point either HS2 tracks will bypass Carlisle or a stand alone bypass would be constructed. That or the through tracks and approaches are upgraded to increase passing speeds.
That's the French model, look at the new Bordeaux line as an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Su...le:LGV_SEA.png

Not remotely familiar with the Carlisle area to know how easy it would be.

And if anything similar would be planned between Preston and Carlisle, or if it would just be a brand new pair - or nothing much due to feasibility.
cle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2019, 12:16 AM   #22709
Merswy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 1,294
Likes (Received): 606

Boris Johnson is dropping ever more clear hints that he will cancel HS2 - today speaking of how it will cost more than £100bn. We will have to wait and see what happens after Thursday...
Merswy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2019, 02:26 AM   #22710
Cheshire Life
Registered User
 
Cheshire Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: North Cheshire & South Manchester
Posts: 565
Likes (Received): 478



He must be worried. Scraping at the bottom of the barrel to eek out some more votes in the Chilterns.
__________________

battenfobs, potto liked this post
Cheshire Life no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2019, 03:25 PM   #22711
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,635
Likes (Received): 301

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugster View Post
You must really value my thoughts as you comment every time I post ffs - obsessed or what??
Gaslighting exhibit A.
__________________
"There is no problem so bad that you can't make it worse" - Chris Hadfield
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2019, 03:31 PM   #22712
Rugster
Registered User
 
Rugster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 1,035
Likes (Received): 374

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeds No.1 View Post
Splitting is just asking for trouble - you only need one of those trains to be delayed on the conventional tracks and the whole line is infected with the disease of delays that infests the UK's rail network.


Just to give more context to the issue you raised

https://www.ontimetrains.co.uk/stations/SHF

Sheffield is ranked 2450 out of 2618 stations for performance. This is without the additional tfn and hs2 services pencilled in.
It seems there will be lots of problems connecting the 2 trains at TOTON on time.
__________________

Leeds No.1 liked this post
Rugster no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2019, 09:27 PM   #22713
Stuu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,661
Likes (Received): 1047

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merswy View Post
Boris Johnson is dropping ever more clear hints that he will cancel HS2 - today speaking of how it will cost more than £100bn. We will have to wait and see what happens after Thursday...
And yet today he was very enthusiastically in favour of it. Who knows, maybe he makes it up as he goes along?
__________________

dggar, Vulcan's Finest, sirstan74, VDB liked this post
Stuu no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2019, 04:28 AM   #22714
Vulcan's Finest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: None these days.
Posts: 9,067
Likes (Received): 2812

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northumbriana View Post
I'd guess though at some point either HS2 tracks will bypass Carlisle or a stand alone bypass would be constructed. That or the through tracks and approaches are upgraded to increase passing speeds.
That's certainly a possibility at some point in the future, not least as the geography around Carlisle is quite favourable. But looking at the time period when phase 2b is complete (2035-40) and the years following on, Carlisle makes the most sense as the location to split and couple up units. The current speed restriction through the station is just 20mph, and it is hard to see how it could ever be more than 40mph - so the time loss is smaller at Carlisle than at any other sensible location. Also the Glasgow trains tend to have less passengers than the Edinburgh trains, so using those to service the modest Carlisle market makes sense.
Vulcan's Finest no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2019, 09:48 AM   #22715
Northumbriana
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 535
Likes (Received): 239

Any chance Glasgow and Edinburgh will warrant their own 400 metre units and thus splitting is no longer required? Maybe HS2 can actually go through Carlisle, there is room alongside the WCML through the city for most of its path. I'd like to think TPE Manchester/Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh services could be operated by high speed units.
Northumbriana no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2019, 04:48 PM   #22716
Leeds No.1
Registered User
 
Leeds No.1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Leeds, EU
Posts: 28,972
Likes (Received): 2707

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugster View Post
Just to give more context to the issue you raised

https://www.ontimetrains.co.uk/stations/SHF

Sheffield is ranked 2450 out of 2618 stations for performance. This is without the additional tfn and hs2 services pencilled in.
It seems there will be lots of problems connecting the 2 trains at TOTON on time.
Plus I don't really see the need to join trains when there's going to be enough spare paths on HS2, at least to start with.
__________________
Check out my travel vlogs on my YouTube
Leeds No.1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 12th, 2019, 02:00 PM   #22717
passiv
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 496
Likes (Received): 351

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merswy View Post
Boris Johnson is dropping ever more clear hints that he will cancel HS2 - today speaking of how it will cost more than £100bn. We will have to wait and see what happens after Thursday...
I have opined elsewhere on SSC that we often like to perceive Boris saying whatever we personally want to believe. Not least as he is a politician and they like to make statements that can mean anything to anyone.

The following story from The Metro suggests he's not minded to cancel...
Quote:
BORIS JOHNSON has said he will back HS2 — as long as the Oakervee Review does so too.

https://www.metro.news/boris-johnson...ys-so/1830438/
I think there is confidence Oakervee is going to recommend building HS2 based on the leaks and Lord Berkely chucking his toys out of his pram.

It would not surprise me if the Oakervee Review was something of a stunt to buy some Chiltern Tory votes to get Boris into Nr. 10 in summer 2019 and for similar reasons, put off pulling the trigger on Phase 1 HS2's Notice To Proceed (for Main Works contracts) until after the General Election (2019) and provide some kind of cover for swallowing the latest budget increase.
__________________

Jon10, Vulcan's Finest, geogregor, LM93 liked this post

Last edited by passiv; December 13th, 2019 at 03:09 AM.
passiv no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2019, 12:41 PM   #22718
potto
Registered User
 
potto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London
Posts: 18,719
Likes (Received): 12524

And with Scottish Independence we can get the EU to cough up for links with Glasgow and HS1. Woooo. Unless Sturgeon tries to do a Bonnie Prince Charlie and flee Paris via Ireland.
potto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2019, 01:19 PM   #22719
Vulcan's Finest
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: None these days.
Posts: 9,067
Likes (Received): 2812

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeds No.1 View Post
Plus I don't really see the need to join trains when there's going to be enough spare paths on HS2, at least to start with.
Not sure how you've come to that conclusion. There's going to be few - if any - spare paths on HS2 in phase one or 2a. A path requires a terminating/departing platform at Euston. And until Euston is fully rebuilt there will only be six platforms available for HS2 trains.

Joining and splitting has been part of the phase 2b HS2 service philosophy since day one. Without it the business case for the full network would clearly be much poorer. The resulting Anglo-Scottish service would be inadequate with an unattractive hourly frequency. Nor will Chesterfield/Sheffield ever be on the HS2 network unless this method of operation is used.
Vulcan's Finest no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 29th, 2019, 08:36 PM   #22720
Paul Bigland
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Halifax
Posts: 94
Likes (Received): 232

Today 'celebrity environmentalist' Chris Packham arranged a stop HS2 ramble/protest. He claims 5 million oppose HS2. Guess what? Less than 1000 turned up...https://paulbigland.blog/2019/12/29/...protest-flops/
__________________
See 39k rail & travel pix at paulbigland.zenfolio.com or read the blog paulbigland.wordpress.com
Paul Bigland no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 


Reply

Tags
high speed rail, hs2, rail, railways

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Bratislava] Full Summary of Projects alien Bratislava 636 October 3rd, 2018 01:45 PM
New to or Lost in this Forum? Thread Finder is Here! fieldsofdreams Airports and Aviation 20 April 2nd, 2018 08:37 AM
** MIDWEST FORUM THREAD FINDER ** Bond James Bond Midwest and Plains 12 September 23rd, 2016 12:30 AM
DEVELOPMENT SUMMARY - Newcastle Metro Area Forum: Projects Listing newcastlepubs Newcastle Metro Area 0 February 7th, 2010 07:32 PM


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us