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Old December 7th, 2019, 06:13 PM   #5481
harryl
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This may make some people happy, Northern scrapping the first set of pacers with a commitment to rid themselves of 55 by next week.

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Old December 7th, 2019, 08:12 PM   #5482
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Good to finally see the withdrawal of Pacers from Northern Rail considering they are such outdated and poor trains. Meanwhile I have also seen pictures online of LNER Intercity 225 Mark 4 carriages being scrapped. Even though they are 30 years old they still look modern and were such high quality carriages when they were introduced.



I also wonder how much of a life the 1980s built Northern Rail Sprinters have? Surely they can't last forever although they should certainly continue to be used until suitable replacement rolling stock is built which will presumably include rolling stock running on alternative fuels to the diesel Sprinters although surely a lot more railways across West Yorkshire should be electrified.
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Old December 8th, 2019, 01:12 PM   #5483
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I think it's a bit of a shame to see the HSTs and 225s going. Don't get me wrong, the Azuma is more than welcome, but I don't know why the HSTs not going to Scotrail can't be repurposed on Cross Country or EMT - I hate the Meridians and not particularly in love with the Voyagers either.

There are also the reasonably long distance Northern services - Leeds - Carlisle, Leeds - Blackpool (or is it Preston now?), Leeds - Nottingham... these would suit HSTs.

225s could go to Greater Anglia as an upgrade to the Class 90s.
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Old December 9th, 2019, 01:18 PM   #5484
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Originally Posted by Leeds No.1 View Post
I think it's a bit of a shame to see the HSTs and 225s going. Don't get me wrong, the Azuma is more than welcome, but I don't know why the HSTs not going to Scotrail can't be repurposed on Cross Country or EMT - I hate the Meridians and not particularly in love with the Voyagers either.

There are also the reasonably long distance Northern services - Leeds - Carlisle, Leeds - Blackpool (or is it Preston now?), Leeds - Nottingham... these would suit HSTs.

225s could go to Greater Anglia as an upgrade to the Class 90s.
East Midlands Railway are taking 9x 8-coach HST's from LNER:
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/ne...midlands-fleet

EMR are replacing their fleet of Meridians with Class 804 Bi-Mode Hitachis, and supplanting that with 4x Class 180's from the Hull Trains fleet.

Greater Anglia are replacing their entire locomotive hauled fleet with Class 745 Stadler FLIRTs, so don't have a need for the Class 91s/Mk4 coaches (which have some very specific dimensions, so I'm not sure if they're cleared to run on those lines)

Given the problems Scotrail are having getting their 'new' Intercity 7 stock, if Northern were waiting for the same stock their current franchise would probably end before they were ready (and I mean the 2025 end, not any government intervention)
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Old December 9th, 2019, 06:02 PM   #5485
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Does seem odd that we're scrapping reaonably OK trains when there always seem to be capacity issues...

Also I note the pacers beginning to be scrapped... To be honest I'd rather see all the 2 car sets saved and turned into 8 car sets if it meant more frequent services...

As example they could all be used as 8 car sets on the Castleford to Leeds line every fifteen minutes...
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Old December 9th, 2019, 07:25 PM   #5486
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Also I note the pacers beginning to be scrapped... To be honest I'd rather see all the 2 car sets saved and turned into 8 car sets if it meant more frequent services...
One of the reasons they're being scrapped (and I think the only reason the 2020 goal is there) is because they don't meet new disability standards. Presumably the step up to get in is the main problem, but that would require throwing money at trains people hate, so its unlikely any company would want to solve it and continue using them.
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Old December 9th, 2019, 10:10 PM   #5487
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One of the reasons they're being scrapped (and I think the only reason the 2020 goal is there) is because they don't meet new disability standards. Presumably the step up to get in is the main problem, but that would require throwing money at trains people hate, so its unlikely any company would want to solve it and continue using them.
Although the step doesn't help (but is overcome by the ramp), it's actually the toilets not being fully accessible that can't be resolved without a full refurb of the train that put the nail in the coffin, along with the reputation, despite them keeping older trains in the fleet (some of the 150s are older than the 144s) which can be brought up to disability regs. Porterbrook refurbed a single Pacer to meet the standards (and is likely to be the last Northern run) but obviously were not considered by the TOCs

Transport for Wales are 'solving' this whilst they still run their Pacers next year by removing* the toilets.

*Locking them and scraping the toilet sign off
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Old December 10th, 2019, 11:10 PM   #5488
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East Midlands Railway are taking 9x 8-coach HST's from LNER:
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/ne...midlands-fleet

EMR are replacing their fleet of Meridians with Class 804 Bi-Mode Hitachis, and supplanting that with 4x Class 180's from the Hull Trains fleet.

Greater Anglia are replacing their entire locomotive hauled fleet with Class 745 Stadler FLIRTs, so don't have a need for the Class 91s/Mk4 coaches (which have some very specific dimensions, so I'm not sure if they're cleared to run on those lines)

Given the problems Scotrail are having getting their 'new' Intercity 7 stock, if Northern were waiting for the same stock their current franchise would probably end before they were ready (and I mean the 2025 end, not any government intervention)
Certainly a lot of stock being cascaded with older stock presumably likely to be scrapped. Would certainly be the end of an era though when the Intercity 125 and 225 are fully retired. Wasn't there once talk of the Intercity 225 being used on the Midland Main Line between London St Pancras and Sheffield had that line been electrified which would have been an ideal new use for those trains. Certainly ridiculous how electrification of the MML has been cancelled and surely I would have thought electrification at least to Leicester would be necessary in order to allow a logical point for an Azuma to change between diesel and electric running considering trains between Sheffield and London run non stop between Leicester and London on the MML.

Also surprised that East Midlands Railway will be getting rid of their Meridians which are under 20 years old. Guess the Meridians could be cascaded onto other long distance non electric Intercity services such as Cross Country or possibly something like the Chiltern Main Line (London Marylebone - Birmingham) or the West of England Main Line (London Waterloo - Exeter) which could allow for a further cascading of units from those lines elsewhere?

As for ScotRail 125's assuming the problems with those units are sorted it would be nice if they could run a service between Glasgow and Leeds via the Settle Carlisle Line. Surely I would have thought there would be plenty of interest in such a service using such rolling stock especially as a faster direct link between Yorkshire and Scotland's largest cities also travelling via the landmark Settle Carlisle line.
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Old December 11th, 2019, 10:10 AM   #5489
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Originally Posted by Leeds No.1 View Post
I think it's a bit of a shame to see the HSTs and 225s going. Don't get me wrong, the Azuma is more than welcome, but I don't know why the HSTs not going to Scotrail can't be repurposed on Cross Country or EMT - I hate the Meridians and not particularly in love with the Voyagers either.

There are also the reasonably long distance Northern services - Leeds - Carlisle, Leeds - Blackpool (or is it Preston now?), Leeds - Nottingham... these would suit HSTs.

225s could go to Greater Anglia as an upgrade to the Class 90s.
I agree that it's a huge shame that they're going, being a rail enthusiast it's sad.

However the acceleration for the 225's isn't that great and Greater Anglia are getting the Stadler FLIRT 745's which are replacing the 90's and thanks to the cancellation of other electrification schemes (MML) the 91's don't really have anywhere else they could go. Another issue with the 91's is they're absolutely shagged after 30 years of heavy running up and down the ECML, they would require a major refit which would cost a substantial amount.

The problem with the HST's is that the work being done to them is taking so long and there's still the issue with PRM such as the toilets. As a regular user of XC between Sheffield and Leeds, and Leeds to Sheffield, the HST's have much better capacity, a nicer interior than the 4/5 car voyagers, not to mention that horrible toilet smell that the Voyagers have! I try to plan my journey based on the HST diagrams and attempt to avoid the voyagers unless they're guaranteed to be a double up unit. I do wish that XC would get more HST's but I think the DFT has said it's unlikely which is a crying shame.

I use the Azuma's nearly every morning on the Airedale line (granted I'm not on them for long), they've got their problems such as the seats and lack of luggage space (they're going to be removing a few of the windowless seats to create more space) but they certainly have the potential to be a good train.

Everyone and their dog are ordering the AT300 design, West cost Avanti have ordered some of the 800's, GWR have their 800's and 802's, TPE and Hull Trains have now got the 802's and EMR have ordered the 804's. Hopefully XC will order some 800's when the DFT get their act together and actually award the XC franchise to someone instead of extending it!

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Old December 12th, 2019, 05:59 PM   #5490
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Although the step doesn't help (but is overcome by the ramp), it's actually the toilets not being fully accessible that can't be resolved without a full refurb of the train that put the nail in the coffin, along with the reputation, despite them keeping older trains in the fleet (some of the 150s are older than the 144s) which can be brought up to disability regs. Porterbrook refurbed a single Pacer to meet the standards (and is likely to be the last Northern run) but obviously were not considered by the TOCs

Transport for Wales are 'solving' this whilst they still run their Pacers next year by removing* the toilets.

*Locking them and scraping the toilet sign off
I absolutely agree that trains and train toilets should be accessible, but surely common sense should also be applied...

Seems madness that nobody is allowed to use a toilet so that everyone is equally treated. Also seems madness that the Pacers can't be kept on as is in order to provide additional capacity to any new trains purchased...
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Old December 13th, 2019, 12:04 AM   #5491
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TfW's Tram train plans also don't include toilets (since, as a tram, they don't have them)
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Old December 15th, 2019, 12:12 PM   #5492
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TRANSPORT | City Region

So, Bojo is back in power and here to stay for the foreseeable future. Not what many (especially in the big cities, including Leeds) would have wanted but there we go, itís happened and it is what it is. On transport, Bojo is promising (for what itís worth) to give northern constituencies that voted for him something concrete to show that their vote actually meant something. For all the lies, it could be a genuine strategy in order to bolster support for years to come, but weíll see. What I do know is that you already hear others banging the drum for investment in the wake of the result, and as usual, probably for lack of a mayor or serious figurehead, nothing from Leeds as yet. Yes, I appreciate stuff in going on behind the scenes but thatís the same for everywhere else - I doubt Leeds has constant talks with the Cabinet or the DfT and it needs to capture the imagination of the public and the PM to really stand a chance, IMO - I say that as it feels like Bojoís personality politics is somewhat Trump-esque, and if he likes something personally, itís probably more likely to happen. If Leeds doesnít formally submit some sort of plan for the city during this next wave of investment, during this Parliament, then I think itís going to be waiting a long time for the next opportunity. I fear its current plans may be somewhat in their infancy, sadly. That said, the main core of Leeds didnít vote Conservative, so perhaps it wonít be seen as a priority.

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Old December 15th, 2019, 02:16 PM   #5493
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No London government is ever going to meet their word unless they invest extortionate amounts in transport to make up for around 70 years of underinvestment.

They'll spend ages strategising and working out what 'innovations' they can come up with to achieve transformation on the cheap, and then they'll believe their own lies that £xx million to build a new siding is in the same category as Crossrail.

When those in power are getting to work on frequent Tubes or segregated cycle superhighways, most of them simply 'don't get it' and no real change is ever going to happen with a Westminster government of any colour. The answer has clearly always laid in devolved government.
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Old December 15th, 2019, 08:59 PM   #5494
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Guess it is a case of wait and see although I am certainly highly cynical that the Tories will significantly invest in transport. Could there be a re-hash of pre-existing or previously cancelled proposals in order to make it that the Tories are investing in transport. Also there is always the possibility of HS2 being either axed or reduced in scale in light of it being seen as so controversial and expensive.
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Old December 16th, 2019, 11:37 AM   #5495
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Chaos on the railways today. Possibly some of it down to the timetable change but I'm sure a lot of it was down to general incompetence too. I ended up doing more miles in the car than on the train going from station to station for various trains to be announced as cancelled or severely delayed (quite often the announcement came long after they should have departed.)

There really needs to be something in place for those of us who buy monthly passes and aren't entitled to any money back no matter how many times our service is cancelled through the month.
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Old December 16th, 2019, 01:39 PM   #5496
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There really needs to be something in place for those of us who buy monthly passes and aren't entitled to any money back no matter how many times our service is cancelled through the month.
Northern will pay compensation for monthly pass-holders:
  • If it's a Northern-issued Season Ticket, you can use their online Delay Repay form.
  • If it's an MCard or similar, you can email them with the equivalent details. We've had a cheque for a delay on an MCard service. I need to get better about bothering to do this.
Though recently we've been doing well at getting money back in Northern's smart-ticket prize draw. Given how often my spouse and I have both been picked out and won back what we've spent the previous month, I suspect Northern have had fewer passengers sign up for the competition than they expected.
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Old December 16th, 2019, 02:54 PM   #5497
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Northern will pay compensation for monthly pass-holders:
  • If it's a Northern-issued Season Ticket, you can use their online Delay Repay form.
  • If it's an MCard or similar, you can email them with the equivalent details. We've had a cheque for a delay on an MCard service. I need to get better about bothering to do this.
Though recently we've been doing well at getting money back in Northern's smart-ticket prize draw. Given how often my spouse and I have both been picked out and won back what we've spent the previous month, I suspect Northern have had fewer passengers sign up for the competition than they expected.

Strange, I've tried claiming for delays/cancellations with my mcard a couple of times and been told that I'm not entitled to anything. I've always assumed it's because you could claim you were intending to get any train. I'll have to look into it further into it. I didn't actually know about the prize draw. Thanks.
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Old December 16th, 2019, 02:58 PM   #5498
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Strange, I've tried claiming for delays/cancellations with my mcard a couple of times and been told that I'm not entitled to anything. I've always assumed it's because you could claim you were intending to get any train. I'll have to look into it further into it. I didn't actually know about the prize draw. Thanks.
I've had the exact same response from Metro/WYCA when I've asked. I currently have a zone 1-5 M-Card through work and they won't give me delay repay because they don't know what I start/finish due to a lack of contactless barriers at all stations in West Yorks (unlike London).

This year I'm giving up the M-Card and getting a New Pudsey-Huddersfield standard season ticket and will save around £400 for the year by doing just that. Least I'll get delay repay if needed that way.
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Old December 16th, 2019, 04:54 PM   #5499
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I've had the exact same response from Metro/WYCA when I've asked. I currently have a zone 1-5 M-Card through work and they won't give me delay repay because they don't know what I start/finish due to a lack of contactless barriers at all stations in West Yorks (unlike London).

This year I'm giving up the M-Card and getting a New Pudsey-Huddersfield standard season ticket and will save around £400 for the year by doing just that. Least I'll get delay repay if needed that way.


I'm in pretty much the same situation. I currently have the 16-25 card but i'll have to pay full price soon so I might just get a Pontefract-Leeds season ticket which would hopefully give me a better chance of claiming back.


I wouldn't mind if it was rare but over the last couple of months about 20% of my morning trains have been cancelled and almost every evening train runs somewhat late.
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Old December 16th, 2019, 05:06 PM   #5500
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I'm in pretty much the same situation. I currently have the 16-25 card but i'll have to pay full price soon so I might just get a Pontefract-Leeds season ticket which would hopefully give me a better chance of claiming back.


I wouldn't mind if it was rare but over the last couple of months about 20% of my morning trains have been cancelled and almost every evening train runs somewhat late.


you know thereís a 26-30 railcard now right?
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