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Old August 13th, 2019, 11:01 PM   #2021
Cherguevara
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Originally Posted by JBGee View Post
So no straight people may be involved with the organisation of a Pride event?
What do you mean by organise? I would imagine that many of the police and council employees who organise practical aspects of the event are straight and I have no problem with that. Similarly design work or promotional activity could be performed by someone of any sexual or gender identity (or of none) and it should be. But if by organise you mean come up with the theme, set the tone of the event, decide who gets to be in the parade etc. then no I don't think straight people should be involved in those decisions. Pride is an LGBTQ event for and by the queer community. If straight people want to come along then that's brilliant, but it's not for them and what they like or want is therefore largely irrelevant.
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Old August 13th, 2019, 11:18 PM   #2022
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Official Manchester Thread 14

So youíre happy for straight ppl to have select roles. But heaven forbid they may have some ideas on a theme.

My word!

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Originally Posted by Cherguevara View Post
Any event that the organisers consider 'straight' has by definition already told me to **** off.

So straight ppl can **** off from Pride?
Make your mind up. Is it inclusive or is it not?
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Old August 13th, 2019, 11:22 PM   #2023
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If you are holding a party for your friends/ family, do you expect me to come round and tell you why kind of decorations to have, what guests should wear, what type of food you can serve ect?

Ridiculous analogy. And not the same.
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Old August 13th, 2019, 11:36 PM   #2024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherguevara View Post
What do you mean by organise? I would imagine that many of the police and council employees who organise practical aspects of the event are straight and I have no problem with that. Similarly design work or promotional activity could be performed by someone of any sexual or gender identity (or of none) and it should be. But if by organise you mean come up with the theme, set the tone of the event, decide who gets to be in the parade etc. then no I don't think straight people should be involved in those decisions. Pride is an LGBTQ event for and by the queer community. If straight people want to come along then that's brilliant, but it's not for them and what they like or want is therefore largely irrelevant.
The gay community involves straight people in many ways - surrogates, local businesses/bars, community groups, Manchester Parents Group (Proud Trust), etc. The latter is very important to many parents and children and offers support. I wholeheartedly disagree with your comment about not letting straight people make decisions or be on the committee for example. It’s almost as if you are slightly heterophobic.
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Old August 13th, 2019, 11:39 PM   #2025
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Originally Posted by JBGee View Post
So youíre happy for straight ppl to have select roles. But heaven forbid they may have some ideas on a theme.

My word!

So straight ppl can **** off from Pride?
Make your mind up. Is it inclusive or is it not?
No, straight people are welcome to attend Pride, they are not welcome to unilaterally decide what form it takes, just as I am welcome to attend a church service but can't force the priest to deliver a sermon of my choosing. It is for LGBT people to decide what happens at LGBT events just as it is for Christians to decide what happens in churches.

This really shouldn't be hard to understand. It's not your thing.
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Old August 13th, 2019, 11:46 PM   #2026
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Official Manchester Thread 14

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Originally Posted by Cherguevara View Post
No, straight people are welcome to attend Pride, they are not welcome to unilaterally decide what form it takes, just as I am welcome to attend a church service but can't force the priest to deliver a sermon of my choosing. It is for LGBT people to decide what happens at LGBT events just as it is for Christians to decide what happens in churches.



This really shouldn't be hard to understand. It's not your thing.

Another absolutely ridiculous analogy. May as well extend this way of thinking to everything then.
What next, no white people should get involved in organising the MOBO awards? How could they possibly have an opinion on music of black origin after all.

I do hope a straight person didnít book Ariana Grande for Pride, Cherguevara wonít be happy.

In fact should Ariana Grande even be performing ???

What do you mean Ďitís not my thingí ?
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Old August 13th, 2019, 11:52 PM   #2027
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Originally Posted by future.architect View Post
If you are holding a party for your friends/ family, do you expect me to come round and tell you why kind of decorations to have, what guests should wear, what type of food you can serve ect?
In your home you can do what the Hell you want and state any rules you fancy. Have the party in the street then everybody gets a say.
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Old August 13th, 2019, 11:53 PM   #2028
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Homepride Self Raising Flour.
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Old August 13th, 2019, 11:57 PM   #2029
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The gay community involves straight people in many ways - surrogates, local businesses/bars, community groups, Manchester Parents Group (Proud Trust), etc. The latter is very important to many parents and children and offers support. I wholeheartedly disagree with your comment about not letting straight people make decisions or be on the committee for example. Itís almost as if you are slightly heterophobic.
Straight people play many valued roles in the gay community, but they can only ever play those roles as guests. Some of those guests are incredibly helpful, loyal, valued and creative contributors; but I don't believe it is 'heterophobic' to say that they need to take a back seat to ensure the voices of LGBT+ people are heard at an LGBT+ event, and I believe that the true allies would agree with me.
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Old August 14th, 2019, 12:01 AM   #2030
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Originally Posted by Cherguevara View Post
Straight people play many valued roles in the gay community, but they can only ever play those roles as guests. Some of those guests are incredibly helpful, loyal, valued and creative contributors; but I don't believe it is 'heterophobic' to say that they need to take a back seat to ensure the voices of LGBT+ people are heard at an LGBT+ event, and I believe that the true allies would agree with me.
Ah so Iím not a true gay if I donít agree with you? Well there we have it people, if you donít agree with Che youíre not a true gay.

Straight people are not telling you what to do or even taking over. They are merely involved in discussion points and adding value to a community they feel they have invested in.
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Old August 14th, 2019, 12:02 AM   #2031
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In your home you can do what the Hell you want and state any rules you fancy. Have the party in the street then everybody gets a say.
Except lots of people hold public events that not everyone gets a say over.

Football parades
Religious events
Political protests
Picket lines
Cultural festivals (Carnival, Mela, St Patrick's Day Parades, Chinese New Year festivities)

As long as those events abide by the law and by the safety advice of the local council/police then they can go ahead without majoritarian input into their content or ethos.
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Old August 14th, 2019, 12:02 AM   #2032
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To be clear, I not only think that straight people are welcome to attend pride. They are also welcome to help to organise it. Pride is supposed to be an inclusive event. But the organisation/ main decisions relating to format, content ect should always be LGBT lead. I don’t see how there is anything wrong with that statement.

I’m a man but I wouldn’t expect to be the CEO of a woman’s festival.
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Old August 14th, 2019, 12:05 AM   #2033
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Another absolutely ridiculous analogy. May as well extend this way of thinking to everything then.
What next, no white people should get involved in organising the MOBO awards? How could they possibly have an opinion on music of black origin after all.

I do hope a straight person didnít book Ariana Grande for Pride, Cherguevara wonít be happy.

In fact should Ariana Grande even be performing ???

What do you mean Ďitís not my thingí ?
I have no objection to straight people going to pride, I told you that. What I object to is straight people thinking they have a right to dictate what pride should be. You don't.

What I mean is that if you aren't LGBT+ then you have no right to say what happens at it. You might be canvassed for your opinion, but that opinion should hold less weight than that of a member of a community that Pride is for.
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Old August 14th, 2019, 12:09 AM   #2034
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In your home you can do what the Hell you want and state any rules you fancy. Have the party in the street then everybody gets a say.
We already have various laws for common decency and such. Iím sure the organisers of pride work with the police to decide the guidelines for parade participants.

As far as Iím concerned itís 1 day per year and if you donít want to watch donít attend.

Pride is supposed to be a celebration of LGBT culture including the more risquť parts.

Anyway, as others have mentioned, people in fetish costumes are quite a small part of the parade.
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Old August 14th, 2019, 12:15 AM   #2035
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Ah so I’m not a true gay if I don’t agree with you? Well there we have it people, if you don’t agree with Che you’re not a true gay.

Straight people are not telling you what to do or even taking over. They are merely involved in discussion points and adding value to a community they feel they have invested in.
I said nothing about you being a true gay or not. As a gay man you can advocate for whatever you see fit, whether I agree with it or not. What I said is that I don't believe that a straight person who thinks that their 'investment' entitles them to a say over Pride is a true ally, because a true ally recognises that the value of Pride is in empowering LGBT+ people, and that setting the agenda at the event is a major part of that. If they love LGBT+ people then they should want us to set the agenda, because they'd understand that its our agenda to set.

There are straight people who have responded to this thread who think they have some kind of veto over pride because it takes place in public or because it might 'scare a child'. Do you feel that adds value to the community?
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Old August 14th, 2019, 12:20 AM   #2036
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We already have various laws for common decency and such. I’m sure the organisers of pride work with the police to decide the guidelines for parade participants.

As far as I’m concerned it’s 1 day per year and if you don’t want to watch don’t attend.

Pride is supposed to be a celebration of LGBT culture including the more risquť parts.

Anyway, as others have mentioned, people in fetish costumes are quite a small part of the parade.
However those fetishes aren’t unique to the LGBT community. If it is about acceptance then that has to include everyone. The first step is to stop labelling people and it’s quite clear that that isn’t going to happen. I now have an option on dating apps if I want to be described as man-man or cis man or non binary etc. Wtf is all that about. We have gone from being an open community and trying to be accepted to closing ranks again by creating more labels. I don’t even know what half those mean.
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Old August 14th, 2019, 12:39 AM   #2037
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However those fetishes aren’t unique to the LGBT community. If it is about acceptance then that has to include everyone. The first step is to stop labelling people and it’s quite clear that that isn’t going to happen. I now have an option on dating apps if I want to be described as man-man or cis man or non binary etc. Wtf is all that about. We have gone from being an open community and trying to be accepted to closing ranks again by creating more labels. I don’t even know what half those mean.
Some of those 'fetish' groups are about more than just sex acts; they are complex subcultures with their own communities, and forms of language and behavior. 'Leathermen' and 'rubbermen' are more than just men who like wearing those substances in bed, much of the puppy thing is non-sexual bonding behaviour and other groups similarly are both sexual and social in nature. In a community where lots of friends have sexual relationships there is going to be an element of overlap between erotic behavior and social life. Including everyone means including these people too.

If you don't want to use labels then you're free not to, but the people who do use them find meaning and value in them. A cis man is simply a non-trans man. Using such a description may be a way of indicating that someone is sensitive to the needs of and open to meeting a trans person. A non-binary person is someone who thinks their gender is somewhere on a spectrum between male and female, and saying so is a way of making it clear to anyone looking at their profile that they have this atypical view of gender norms. In the olden days people wouldn't need to label themselves because they'd just see one another in person and decide if they were interested; online where it's much more ambiguous it appears that some people find such sub-categorisation useful. You see this as a way of rejecting acceptance, but I think what's happened is that the acceptance in society of the more simple flavours of LGBT+ life has encouraged people who don't quite fit into those boxes to be more open about the more complex ways they need to express their gender or sexuality.

As you say, acceptance has to include everyone, but it also has to allow those people to be accepted as they truly are.
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Old August 14th, 2019, 12:48 AM   #2038
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Manchester is our city. Everybody's city too. It should nor be restrictive in accessing districts based on which (if not increasingly both) side of the stamp you prefer to lick.
Pride gets annual attendance figures which rise annually. And this without doubt is due to the contributions of the myriad people who have the audacity to be straight. LBGT,BLT or any other daft group who cement themselves to a daft acronym. We all collectively get our arses slapped in this short term exploitation of our funds.
Even those who attend ( Gay or straight) go home with the feeling that they've been well-and-truly schtoompfed for a whole evening.
Not being cruel to the concept of pride. I just see it as as much as a money-making annual grab-for- cash as Scot's bank holiday is to the traders of Blackpool.
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Old August 14th, 2019, 04:00 AM   #2039
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Manchester is our city. Everybody's city too. It should nor be restrictive in accessing districts based on which (if not increasingly both) side of the stamp you prefer to lick.
Pride gets annual attendance figures which rise annually. And this without doubt is due to the contributions of the myriad people who have the audacity to be straight. LBGT,BLT or any other daft group who cement themselves to a daft acronym. We all collectively get our arses slapped in this short term exploitation of our funds.
Even those who attend ( Gay or straight) go home with the feeling that they've been well-and-truly schtoompfed for a whole evening.
Not being cruel to the concept of pride. I just see it as as much as a money-making annual grab-for- cash as Scot's bank holiday is to the traders of Blackpool.
I don't think any area should be closed off. It pisses off people every year and it kinda goes completely against the whole 'freedom' thing, if you have to pay to walk down some streets you already own (sort of).

It's a financial rip off for the attendees, but they don't seem to care (or are too stupid to realise ), but it does seem to attract a ton of people and therefore spend to Manchester, so it should benefit everyone economically. It also is a good PR move that should put Manchester on a higher position on the tourist/tolerance/livability map which is also beneficial economically but in the longer term.

FYI - I'm only assuming based on my incredible common sense capabilities that it is financially beneficial to the city. Anyone got any numbers/ideas if it is true?
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Old August 14th, 2019, 07:25 AM   #2040
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I disagree completely! I first started going to the gym 11 years ago. Before then I was very slim, probably slightly underweight for my height. I’d always liked look of the more muscular build. It didn’t take long until I started seeing positive changes to my body and I started to really enjoy the gym.

I think lifting weights is excellent for the body and the mind. I never leave the gym in a bad mood. The feeling you get after a good workout is hard to describe. The only time it is unhealthy is if you are too obsessed with how you look and you are looking for quick fixes such as steroids.

But I really do think a muscular body is realistic and safe for pretty much everyone - to a point. I’m a real person, I have a full time job. All you have to is eat healthy and lift weights for a little as 3 hours a week.

That said I do not think there is any way people should look.

As for fetish gear. Personally I am a bit of a prude in that regard and I certainly wouldn’t walk down Deansgate in a rubber suit with my bum out while being whipped. But i kind of feel that’s due to my own prudishness.
Thanks for your reply. Its given me a lot to mull over, so here goes -


I could get really personal, but I’m just too embarrassed to do it, but suffice it to say I have had major body issues since I was 15 back in 1995 that really messed up my life, and still does to a lesser extent today.

I don’t think the gym is anywhere near as easy as you describe for a huge amount of people. I went for years from 21, did bench, deads, squats, ate 7000 calories (don’t know how I landed on that and not 6000 or 8000, but I did), got some pro help, after a while I did cheat after a few years (I also genuinely had really low test), and I made some good progress, but it was exhausting and took so much food and money and time and just wasn’t sustainable. Also, aging doesn't help things.

Most people just can’t genetically do much, or it just takes a ludicrous amount of time/effort/resources/money etc that it isn’t feasible.

You mention ‘obsessed with how you look’, being when things get problematic in the gym. That was a huge problem with me back when there was no internet, no social media, no love island. Imagine how things are for kids today. In fact, you don’t have to, because the news is constantly filled with soaring rates of body issues, deprssion, anorexia, bulimia, bigorexia, steroid abuse. Teenagers are getting nose jobs and teeth whitening’s and fillers and all that crap, and many more want to be able to get those things.

I hate, hate, hate, this culture of worshipping those with pretty bodies and empty minds (and faces, we haven’t mention that yet and how no amount of exercise can change that). I hate how much worse it has gotten and I believe it will only get worse.

Gay pride isn’t the fault of that. But gay body stereotypes do play a part. It’s one of the reasons gay men always have reported higher incidents of depression, suicide, BDD, steroid abuse, etc. As an aside, gay fashion designers are often thought to be responsible for a lot of current female body issues because they were the ones responsible for heroin chic (or whatever it is, I don’t do fashion).

As I said before I don’t propose the pecboys be made to wear burkas or anything silly like that. There just isn’t anything to be done. Maybe society could learn to judge people more or earned talent not unearned looks (and going to the gym and getting your teeth whitened is not earned or counts as effort in the same way as getting a STEM degree does), but you know, HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA to that happening.

I can’t do anything about it except for two things. One is to never spend any money supporting anything that is remotely body fascist related, never talk about someone’s looks, praise them for it, never buy gay magazines, never watch reality tv, or buy into any of that in anyway. And I never have. Two, every now and then on a construction forum the issue will come up (obviously) and I will have a little moan about it.

And regarding fetish gear. It’s sex not love. It should be an adults only parade, located in an area like Richmond Street. I ain’t changing my mind on that. It’s also giving a lot of ammunition to the gayhaters. Now that doesn’t automatically mean to bend over and take their demands like a man, but I think some people are a little too auto-defensive of all gay issues, and I think separating out Gay Pride and Sex Positive Pride (for example) is a smart move.


Thanks for reading (assuming anyone got this far!).
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