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Old April 25th, 2011, 01:01 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Labatt Park, London, Ontario

World's Oldest Ballpark, 1877

Labatt Park, formerly Tecumseh Park, is located in London, Ontario, Canada. It's the world's oldest baseball park and opened May 3, 1877. The ballpark was originally the home of the London Tecumsehs, but is now home to the London Majors of the Intercounty Baseball League.

London is about 20 kilometres from the birthplace of baseball: Beachville, Ontario.
Cleveland's League Park is the World's Oldest Major League Ballpark
Is Cleveland’s League Park the Oldest Ballpark in North America?
BY J.C. DEMAGALL

League Park, Cleveland’s legendary ballpark that quietly resides on E. 66th and Lexington Ave., is pretty old, but is it the oldest existing ballpark in North America? The answer is yes, and no. In order to answer the question, a thorough definition of the categories by which you will apply the term “oldest” will need to be addressed. There are differences between ball grounds and ballparks; professional ball fields and amateur fields; Canadian parks and United States parks; and what’s being used either “continuously”, or as a ballpark today. In other words, the large amount of categories makes it hard to nail down which is the oldest “ballpark”. Cleveland's League Park has certain characteristics that place it into specific categories. It was originally built in 1891 as a wooden ballpark for the National League, Cleveland Spiders. The National League is recognized by Major League Baseball, and the Baseball Hall of Fame as one of the “major leagues” that existed in history. In 1910, the wooden ballpark at League Park was raised, and a steel and concrete park was erected around the same field. The Cleveland Indians, of the American League, played there from 1901 until 1946. Therefore, we can state the following facts regarding the categories League Park:

1. League Park was a baseball ground from 1891 to 1946, and is presently being used as a ball grounds.
2. League Park was a major league ballpark from 1891 to 1946.
3. League Park still host’s amateur baseball matches to this day, but hasn’t hosted a major league match since 1946.
4. The existing buildings on the League Park site date to 1910.
5. The League Park field (although now fully grass) is in the same spot as in 1891.
6. League Park is in the United States.

Ball grounds are defined as “fields” where the game of baseball has been played and/or continues to be played. Ballparks are defined as structures that are around the field, in full, or in part, whose sole purpose is to support the ball grounds for the objective of playing the game of baseball. If we purely use a ball grounds definition, the oldest ball grounds in the country are Elysian Fields, Hoboken, NJ, where the Knickerbocker Base Ball Club played beginning in 1845. However, the park no longer exists, and the goal of this article is to find the historical significance of existing ball grounds or ballparks. Therefore, the oldest existing ball grounds, is most likely Clinton, MA’s Fuller Field. The game of baseball has been played on this field since 1878, continuously, to this day. Even Guinness Book of Records recognizes Fuller Field as the oldest ball grounds in the world. However, there is a dispute to that record. Labatt Park (formerly Tecumseh Park) in London, Ontario, Canada claims to be the oldest continuously operating ball grounds in the world. However, the arrangement of the field has changed (i.e., home plate and the base alignment) since it was opened in 1877. Therefore, Guinness Book of World Records defines "continuous" as: operating ball ground is a field on which baseball is played, that has not changed since its inception. There is still more controversy to this subject. The Hartford Base Ball Grounds, Hartford, CT, was established in 1874 for the National Association of Professional Base Ball Players Club, the Hartford Dark Blues. Currently, the field still exists, and is on the grounds of the Metropolitan Community Church. It is also currently the home ball grounds of a vintage baseball club named the Hartford Dark Blues, and called Colt Meadows. It hasn’t continuously been used as a ball grounds, but it is currently, on the same spot as the original ball grounds. Therefore, Colt Meadows (aka Hartford base Ball Grounds) is the oldest ball grounds where the game is still being played, but it can't claim the title of "continuous play". The matter is further complicated when you designate “professional” v. “amateur” ball grounds. You can further break this down to “major league” professional clubs v. “minor league” professional clubs. Major League Baseball and the Baseball Hall of Fame both recognize the following leagues as “major leagues”: The National League (1876-present), Union Association (1884), American Association (1882-1891), Players League (1890), American League (1901-present) and the Federal League (1914-1915). At no time did any “major league” clubs play on Fuller, Labatt or Hartford baseball grounds. The Hartford Dark Blues, who played for the National Association of Professional Base Ball Players (1871-1875), is not considered a “major league” team by MLB or BHoF. However, they were a professional club, and did play in the National League for one season (1876), on the Hartford Ball Grounds. Prior to 1910, most ballparks were made with inexpensive materials (wood). Most of these parks were used heavily, for baseball in the summer, and many, like Cleveland's Kennard Street Park (Carnegie & E.46th) (1879-1884), were used as ice skating parks in the winter to supplement income. Also, most wooden parks seated a smaller number of fans. Steel and brick ballparks allowed greater capacity due to higher, stronger structures. The extensive use of ballparks, combined with the common occurrence of lightning strikes and the progress of the game made all wooden ballparks for major league professional use obsolete by the mid-20th century. In addition, the land encroachment of large cities, which could support a professional baseball franchise, led to many of the wooden parks being sold for development. Note that most of the “oldest” parks or ground categories exist in small towns or cities. Consequently, all original wooden ballparks from the 19th century and early 20th century have been destroyed, and no longer exist. There is some controversy surrounding which ballpark is the oldest. Rickwood Field, Birmingham, AL, built in 1910, claims to be the oldest continually operating ballpark in the world. According to projectballpark.org, Rickwood’s status may be in question. Cardine’s Field in Newport, R.I., was allegedly host to baseball matches as early as 1893. The backstop at the park is dated to 1908 and the structure of the stadium was rebuilt in 1938. Centennial Field in Burlington, Vermont was originally built in 1906. It was destroyed by fire and rebuilt as a concrete and steel structure in 1913. Wahconah Park in Pittsfield, MA has hosted baseball matches since 1892. Although it is a wooden ballpark, it was constructed in 1919, and renovated in 1950. Because Rickwood had a structure built in 1910, which has remained and not been renovated or destroyed and replaced, it has to be the oldest continuously operating ballpark in the world. The other candidates could try to fall into the category of oldest ball grounds, due to lack of structures when they opened, but they fall short in those categories as well. Cleveland’s League Park is by far the oldest baseball ground of a major league club that still exists. The field is in the same location as it was in 1891. Even http://www.projectballpark.org/ sites it is probably the oldest professional major league ballpark. The only field that comes close is the old Hartford Ball Grounds (Colt Meadows). The issue with Colt Meadows is that it still is an open field, and the locations of home plate and bases may not be the same as they were in 1876 (the only year a major league club played on the grounds). Because the location of the initial field is in dispute, Colt Meadows needs to have a category all it’s own, and rightfully owns a claim as one of the worlds oldest ball grounds. There is no controversy as to which ballpark is the oldest major league ballpark that still exists, and where the game is still played. That title goes to Cleveland’s League Park. No other former major league park built prior to Fenway Park exists today. League Park’s remaining buildings were built in 1910, and the field hasn’t changed since 1891. Both dates predate Fenway Park, Wrigley Field or any other parks that existed during that time period. Cleveland’s League Park is an exception to many of the rules that led to the decline of professional parks and grounds. Because of Cleveland’s early growth as a large city, it was able to afford to field a major league club early in the baseball craze of the mid 19th century. In addition, when wooden parks began to decline, Cleveland was fortunate enough to build a modern facility on the old ball grounds. Finally, after the majority of the park was razed in the 1950’s, it was not developed, mainly due to urban decline. Therefore, League Park still exists today as one of the oldest ball grounds/ballparks in the world. The question is what do we do with this treasure? Can Cleveland maintain and save what is left, or does it fall into decay, development and destruction like all of her predecessors.

The following is a list of the world’s oldest ball grounds and ballparks:

· Oldest Base Ball Grounds – Elysian Fields, Hoboken, NJ (1845)
· Oldest Base Ball Grounds (still a “park” where base ball could still be played) – Fairgrounds Park, Rockford, IL (1860)
· Oldest Base Ball Grounds (still in existence, where the game is still played) – Colt Meadows, Hartford, CT (1874)
· Oldest Base Ball Grounds (continuous) – Tecumseh Park (Labatt Park), London, Ontario (1877)
· Oldest Base Ball Grounds (continuous, same exact field) – Fuller Field, Clinton, MA (1878)
· Oldest Base Ball Grounds (major league club, same exact field, where the game is still played) – League Park, Cleveland, OH (1891)
· Oldest Base Ball Park (major league, still in existence, where game is still played) – League Park, Cleveland, OH (1891)
· Oldest Base Ball Park (continuous) – Rickwood Field, Birmingham, AL (1910)
· Oldest Base Ball Park (major league club, continuous) – Fenway Park, Boston, MA (1912)

Sources:
http://www.projectballpark.org/
http://www.wikipedia.org/
http://www.leaguepark.org/
Base Ball on the Western Reserve, James Egan Jr.
Lost Ballparks, Ritter
Green Cathedrals, Lowery

http://www.clevelandareahistory.com/...ds-oldest.html
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Old April 25th, 2011, 01:08 AM   #82
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A model of the St. Paul Saints (Independent; American Association) proposed ballpark in St. Paul, Minnesota:



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Old April 25th, 2011, 02:15 AM   #83
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Even Guinness Book of Records recognizes Fuller Field as the oldest ball grounds in the world. However, there is a dispute to that record. Labatt Park (formerly Tecumseh Park) in London, Ontario, Canada claims to be the oldest continuously operating ball grounds in the world. However, the arrangement of the field has changed (i.e., home plate and the base alignment) since it was opened in 1877.
That Labatt Park later moved the bases a few feet shouldn't negate it's claim. Fuller Field opened a year later than Labatt Park. It's a dubious way for Fuller to claim the title. If every ball park in the world moves its bases a few inches does some ball park that opened yesterday become the oldest? It's ridiculous. Labatt Park in Ontario is the oldest.

Cutting through all the arguments what jumps out over everything else is this: the oldest documentation of baseball is a game that took place in Beachville, Ontario in 1838. Beachville is the birthplace of baseball.
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Old April 25th, 2011, 06:37 AM   #84
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That Labatt Park later moved the bases a few feet shouldn't negate it's claim. Fuller Field opened a year later than Labatt Park. It's a dubious way for Fuller to claim the title. If every ball park in the world moves its bases a few inches does some ball park that opened yesterday become the oldest? It's ridiculous. Labatt Park in Ontario is the oldest.
LaBatt Park didn't move the bases a few inches they changed the entire orientation of the field... Tecumseh Park was damaged by a flood of the Thames River on July 11, 1883 which destroyed the original grandstands, located near today's outfield foul ball lines. Originally, home plate was located in today's left-centre field. The new replacement grandstand (1883–1937) was built facing east toward downtown London, with home plate moved to approximately the same location as it is today. So they run into the Ship of Theseus paradox; Does an object which has had all its component parts replaced remain fundamentally the same object? That is why Guinness Book of World Records puts them into the baseball grounds (Oldest Base Ball Grounds (continuous)) category instead of the ballpark category because the ballpark is not in the same spot.

As for your other claim...

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Cutting through all the arguments what jumps out over everything else is this: the oldest documentation of baseball is a game that took place in Beachville, Ontario in 1838. Beachville is the birthplace of baseball.
The New York Times posted this on their website July 08, 2001:

Baseball's Disputed Origin Is Traced Back, Back, Back
By EDWARD WONG


It is as elusive as the search for Atlantis, as tangled in legend as the quest for the Holy Grail. For nearly a century, historians have trolled stacks of dusty tomes in hopes of unearthing the origins of baseball. Its primordial myth held that Abner Doubleday, a West Point cadet, invented the game in 1839 on a dirt field in Cooperstown, N.Y., where the Baseball Hall of Fame is now situated. In recent years, historians have credited Alexander J. Cartwright, a New York bank clerk, and the Knickerbocker Base Ball Club for codifying many of the modern rules and using them for the first time in an 1846 game at the Elysian Fields in Hoboken, N.J. Now, two newspaper references to baseball have turned up that show that an organized version of the game was being played even earlier in New York City. The articles appeared April 25, 1823; they indicate that some form of the game was even then being called ''base ball'' and was played in Manhattan. The articles, discovered by a librarian at New York University, George A. Thompson Jr., bolster a growing consensus that baseball emerged gradually, by evolution and not by invention. The longer of the two articles appeared in The National Advocate, one of about eight daily newspapers published in New York at the time. It is signed by a person wishing to be known only as a spectator. A mere four sentences, the article begins: ''I was last Saturday much pleased in witnessing a company of active young men playing the manly and athletic game of 'base ball' at the Retreat in Broadway (Jones'). I am informed they are an organized association, and that a very interesting game will be played on Saturday next at the above place, to commence at half past 3 o'clock, P.M. Any person fond of witnessing this game may avail himself of seeing it played with consummate skill and wonderful dexterity.'' The game was played on the west side of Broadway between what is today Eighth Street and Washington Place in Greenwich Village, long before anyone dreamed of putting on a pinstripe uniform. The booming port city of New York had more than 120,000 residents in 1823, according to the census, and its warren of cobblestone lanes had pushed as far north as present-day Canal Street. The Retreat mentioned in the article was a two-acre rural estate that in 1822 became the site of a tavern run by a man named William Jones. John Thorn, a baseball historian, said the article supported the theory that baseball gradually evolved from prototypes. ''It really is an uninterrupted lineage,'' said Mr. Thorn, who edits ''Total Baseball'' (Total Sports Publishing, 2001), a 2,600-page encyclopedia of the sport. ''Amateur scholars will attempt to put stakes in a moving stream. But the water is the water.'' Newspaper articles discovered over the last decade or so bolster that theory. In 1990 a Harvard student unearthed an account, complete with a box score, of a baseball game between teams from New York and Brooklyn in 1845. Then an article surfaced the following year that had been published in 1825 in a newspaper in Delhi, N.Y. Signed by nine men from the town of Hamden, it challenged an ''equal number of persons in any town in the County of Delaware'' to ''play the game of BASS-BALL, for the sum of one dollar each per game.'' (Stagecoach Series, anyone?) In the early 19th century, Americans were just starting to adopt leisure activities, historians say, and ball games were still considered child's play. Boxing, horse racing, rowboat racing and bowling in saloons were more popular as entertainment for adults. But many sports, and the gambling that inevitably accompanied them, drew denouncements from newspapers. Scholars say that probably explains why the author of the 1823 article in The National Advocate ended it with this line: ''It is surprising, and to be regretted that the young men of our city do not engage more in this manual sport; it is innocent amusement, and healthy exercise, attended with but little expense, and has no demoralizing tendency.'' The second article discovered by Mr. Thompson, the soft-spoken N.Y.U. librarian, was published the same day in The New-York Gazette and General Advertiser. That paper apparently received the same letter printed in The Advocate and summed it up in one paragraph, starting with ''We have received a communication in favor of the manly exercise of base ball.'' The writer of the letter seemed to assume readers knew what he was talking about, indicating the game was ''not a revolutionary new product'' in 1823, Mr. Thorn, the editor of ''Total Baseball,'' said. Another baseball historian, Mark Alvarez, said, ''The exciting thing about this discovery is that it implies this game was a regular meeting, that you could go somewhere and expect people to play ball and you could watch.'' Mr. Alvarez is the editor of The National Pastime, an annual journal of baseball history that recently published an article by Mr. Thompson on his finding. Dean A. Sullivan, another baseball scholar, said the finding was fascinating and had some significance as to the overall evolution of baseball. But Mr. Sullivan, who edited ''Early Innings'' (University of Nebraska Press, 1995), a collection of early accounts of baseball, cautioned that although the article ''mentions the magic word, you can't equate that exactly to what we know as baseball today.'' The Advocate article has no description of the game it refers to. Many rules of the modern game, like foul territory and throwing to a base to get a player out, were not known to have been formally introduced until the 1846 match in Hoboken. Other elements, like nine innings in a game and nine players to a team, did not become the norm until the following decade, scholars say. So, the 1823 game could have resembled any of the ancestors of baseball that were being played at the time. For example, a game called town ball (probably played before or after a town meeting) required a player to be hit with the ball to be called out. In cricket and rounders, all the players took a turn at bat. Variations of another game, known as ol' cat, used holes as bases and required players to stick their bats in them as they raced from one to the next. ''History is much more interesting, much more messy, and baseball has 1,000 fathers,'' Mr. Thorn said. Ball games involving bases were mentioned in print as early as the 18th century, said David Q. Voigt, a retired professor of sociology and anthropology at Albright College in Reading, Pa., and the author of a three-volume history of baseball. For instance, a doctor in George Washington's army in Valley Forge, Pa., wrote of a game where players ran from base to base, he said. Children's books of that century described a similar game. And Mr. Thorn points out that an Englishwoman named Lady Hervey wrote in a letter in 1748 that the family of the Prince of Wales was ''diverting themselves with baseball, a play all who are or have been schoolboys are well acquainted with.'' By the early 1830's, a version of baseball was starting to be played by clubs in New York, according to a book published several decades later. But after its mention in The Advocate in 1823, references to the game did not crop up again in New York newspapers until the 1840's, scholars say. Mr. Thompson said he had looked through thousands of early 19th century newspapers on microfilm without finding any other reference to baseball. (As for why he spends hours each week poring over such papers, he said, ''It's a cheap hobby, and it keeps me from falling into the company of frolicsome women.'') ''Finding this paragraph on the 1823 ballgame was an accident,'' he said as he stood outside his cluttered office, a navy blue tie with white baseball diamonds dangling over his belly. ''I certainly didn't go looking for it. Anyone who goes looking for something specific in newspapers of that era is in for a lot of frustration.'' As baseball overtook cricket in popularity after the Civil War, it showed up in more and more writings. People would wax nostalgic over how it was played during their childhoods, Mr. Sullivan said. One politician, for instance, wrote in 1884 of seeing the game in Rochester in 1825, only two years after it was played at the Retreat in Manhattan. But such recollections are unconfirmed and possibly apocryphal, Mr. Sullivan said. By the 1880's, baseball had already entered the mythos of the United States as a symbol of an ''idyllic, rural American past, an expression of nostalgic desire for 'the good old days,' '' Mr. Sullivan wrote in ''Early Innings.'' In other words, it had become the national pastime.

Then, on May 11, 2004, at 4:40 PM ET, ESPN posted this article on their website:

Pittsfield uncovers earliest written reference to game
Associated Press


PITTSFIELD, Mass. -- Officials and historians in this western Massachusetts city released a 213-year-old document Tuesday that they believe is the earliest written reference to baseball. The evidence comes in a 1791 bylaw that aims to protect the windows in Pittsfield's new meeting house by prohibiting anyone from playing baseball within 80 yards of the building. That bylaw would have been produced well before Abner Doubleday is said to have written the rules for the game in 1839. Historian John Thorn was doing research on the origins of baseball when he found a reference to the bylaw in an 1869 book on Pittsfield's history. He shared his find with former major leaguer and area resident Jim Bouton, who told city officials about the ordinance. A librarian found the actual document in a vault at the Berkshire Athenaeum library. Its age was authenticated by researchers at the Williamstown Art Conservation Center. "It's clear that not only was baseball played here in 1791, but it was rampant," Thorn said. "It was rampant enough to have an ordinance against it." The long-accepted story of baseball's origins centers around Cooperstown, N.Y., where Doubleday is said to have come up with the rules for the modern game. That legend long legitimized the Baseball Hall of Fame's presence in Cooperstown, although later evidence pointed to the first real game being played in Hoboken, N.J., in 1846. In 2001, a librarian at New York University came across two newspaper articles published on April 25, 1823, that show an organized form of a game called "base ball" was being played in Manhattan. The Pittsfield group hopes their find puts to rest the debate about the game's origins. "Pittsfield is baseball's Garden of Eden," Mayor James Ruberto said. But experts say it may be impossible to say exactly where and when baseball was created because it evolved from earlier games, such as cricket and rounders, another English game played with a bat and ball. "There's no way of pinpointing where the game was first played," said Jeff Idelson, a spokesman for the Hall of Fame. "Baseball wasn't really born anywhere." Still, Idelson said if the Pittsfield group's document is authentic, it would be "incredibly monumental." Pittsfield might be a sensible home for the sport. Some historians have documented "the Massachusetts game" as a precursor to modern baseball, where runners were thrown out if they were hit by a ball. Bouton, whose decade-long career as a pitcher included stints with the New York Yankees and Houston Astros, lives in nearby Egremont and is helping to restore Pittsfield's Wahconah Park, the former home of several minor league teams. He hopes the discovery helps bring attention to the project. "We thought this was a lucky stroke," said Bouton, whose 1970 book "Ball Four" offered a scandalous look behind the scenes of professional baseball. "I'm sure Pittsfield will live off this for a while." For now, the document will be kept in a vault until city officials figure out how to properly display it. A copy will be hung at Wahconah Park, one of the nation's oldest ballparks.

Then, on September 11th, 2008 I found this article from the The Daily Telegraph (a UK newspaper):

Major League Baseball told their sport was invented in Surrey, not America
By Stephen Adams


A diary has been found which describes the game being played by a teenager in Guildford in 1755. Previously it had been thought that the game developed in America in the 1790s. But this new proof indicates that the British can claim to have invented yet another of the world's great games, formerly considered as American as apple pie. The handwritten entry was discovered in the diary of lawyer William Bray. It documents a game with friends on Easter Monday 1755, when he was still a teenager. Local historian Tricia St John Barry found the diary in a shed near Guildford and the entry was later verified as authentic by Julian Pooley, manager of the Surrey History Centre in Woking and an expert of Bray. Surrey County Council later wrote to Major League Baseball (MLB), the governing body of the sport in the US, to inform the institution of the find. It said the MLB had accepted that the diary did contain the earliest known manuscript reference to baseball in the world. Councillor Helyn Clack of Surrey County Council, said: "Baseball is an integral part of American life and this news about a national obsession in the US, where home-grown sports have traditionally dominated, will reverberate far and wide. "It is a game steeped in history and now Surrey County Council's History Centre and an inquisitive local historian have provided the earliest manuscript proof that the game the Americans gave to the world came from England." A digital version of the entry is due to go on display at the Woking centre soon. Mr Pooley has also worked closely with MLB on the production of a documentary film tracing the origins of the game, called Base Ball Discovered.
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Old April 25th, 2011, 06:43 AM   #85
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I almost forgot one... This comes from the New York Times, November 02, 1990:

Derek Robinson, in "Run With the Ball," a humorous book about rugby, talks about false claims on the origin of the game of rugby in a chapter called "What's Ellis All About?" He compares this myth to the Abner Doubleday myth and mentions that in The Boy's Own Book, published in London in 1828, the game described as "rounders" was just another name for a baseball.

He goes on, however, to say that in any case the word "baseball" goes back much further.

"Jane Austen," he writes, "used it in 'Northanger Abbey' in 1798. Fifty years earlier, Lady Hervey described in a letter what the family of Frederick, Prince of Wales, were doing: they were 'diverting themselves with baseball, a play all who are or have been schoolboys are well acquainted with.' And in 1744 an alphabetical book of sports for English children -- the kind that starts 'A is for Archery' -- chose to represent the letter B with 'Baseball.' " Thus, if a book published in 1744 makes mention of baseball, it would presuppose that the game had been played even earlier. C. A. JACKSON Piermont, N.Y., Oct. 21, 1990
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Old April 26th, 2011, 10:13 AM   #86
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If you want to reach for tenuous links, one could probably find bat and ball games from 2000 years ago.
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Old April 26th, 2011, 10:37 AM   #87
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True. But 2000 years ago the ball might of been a human head.
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Old April 26th, 2011, 11:05 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
That Labatt Park later moved the bases a few feet shouldn't negate it's claim. Fuller Field opened a year later than Labatt Park. It's a dubious way for Fuller to claim the title. If every ball park in the world moves its bases a few inches does some ball park that opened yesterday become the oldest? It's ridiculous. Labatt Park in Ontario is the oldest.

Cutting through all the arguments what jumps out over everything else is this: the oldest documentation of baseball is a game that took place in Beachville, Ontario in 1838. Beachville is the birthplace of baseball.
Why you still consider that to be the birthplace of baseball is beyond me. It is a fact that baseball had been played for years before that game. First "documented" game means nothing. So it was in the paper. Whoop de doo. It was not the first game ever played.

Then again, you have shown in the past to be completely ignorant in the history of baseball and football, so this isn't really surprising.

Oh, and this time, don't insult my grandfather while you try to refute my claims.
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Old April 26th, 2011, 12:37 PM   #89
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Quote:
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Cutting through all the arguments what jumps out over everything else is this: the oldest documentation of baseball is a game that took place in Beachville, Ontario in 1838. Beachville is the birthplace of baseball.
No, it isn't. It's just the oldest surviving highlight. Your claim has always been ridiculous.
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Old April 26th, 2011, 01:10 PM   #90
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If you want to reach for tenuous links, one could probably find bat and ball games from 2000 years ago.
If you want to talk about tenuous, well, let's examine Beachville's claim...

For those of you that don't know this story... Dr. Adam Ford wrote a letter to Sporting Life magazine (entitled "A Game of Long-ago Which Closely Resembled Our Present National Game") in 1886 detailing a baseball game 48 years earlier in Beachville on June 4, 1838 — Militia Muster Day. There is absolutely nothing, like a public record or even another eyewitness, to back up his claim... And, according to this article from The Trivia Guys, Randy Ray and Mark Kearney, Dr. Ford was not a reputable character:

Quote:
Finally, some aspects of Ford's personal life may have fueled controversy surrounding the letter. Because he was born in 1831 and only a youngster when the game was played, some have questioned how a boy could have remembered such specifics. And Ford was also involved in a sensational murder scandal in St. Marys, Ont in 1878, when a Robert Guest who was the secretary of the St. Marys Temperance Association died mysteriously after drinking in Ford's office. A coroner's inquest was held behind closed doors, and Ford was not brought to trial. However, the incident prompted his move to Denver in 1880. Ford supposedly had a history of alcohol and drug problems and died virtually destitute on May 17, 1906.
Now look at the pic of the sign you posted:

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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
It says the "First Recorded Baseball Game 1838." Dr. Ford wrote his letter in 1886. So if no one bothered to write anything down till 1886 how can Beachville believably claim this was the first recorded game?
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Old April 26th, 2011, 01:32 PM   #91
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Anyway... Here are some historic ballparks...

Lamar Porter Field, Little Rock, AR (thanks to http://ballparks.baseballyakker.com for the pics)




Dunsmuir City Ball Park, Dunsmuir, CA (Babe Ruth played an exhibition game there in 1924)
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Woodside Mill Baseball Park, Simpsonville, SC (thanks to http://www.flickr.com/photos/scmikeb...7600076059580/ for the pics)
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Old April 26th, 2011, 10:43 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by eMKay View Post
No, it isn't. It's just the oldest surviving highlight. Your claim has always been ridiculous.
I think it's an inferiority complex. Canada vs the USA.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 02:26 AM   #93
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Long story short...there is no way to prove who invented baseball and where. It is IMPOSSIBLE to pinpoint down.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 10:10 AM   #94
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I think it's an inferiority complex. Canada vs the USA.
It's not my experience that Americans feel inferior, but this discussion does seem to have hit a raw nerve.
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World's 1st Baseball Game: June 4th, 1838, Beachville, Ontario, Canada
North America's Oldest Pro Football Teams: Toronto Argonauts (1873) and Hamilton Tiger Cats (1869)

I started my first photo thread documenting a recent trip to Halifax, Nova Scotia. Have a peek: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=724898
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Old April 27th, 2011, 10:11 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
It says the "First Recorded Baseball Game 1838." Dr. Ford wrote his letter in 1886. So if no one bothered to write anything down till 1886 how can Beachville believably claim this was the first recorded game?
Just because something isn't published doesn't mean their are no records.

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Originally Posted by eMKay View Post
No, it isn't. It's just the oldest surviving highlight. Your claim has always been ridiculous.
Since when did it become my claim? Take it up with the Baseball Hall of Fame and the Town of Beachville. Maybe they'll change it to oldest surviving highlight if you ask real nice.

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Originally Posted by Scba View Post
Long story short...there is no way to prove who invented baseball and where. It is IMPOSSIBLE to pinpoint down.
People are acting like I just told them someone shot their granny, so let's just say that the Mayans invented it.
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World's 1st Baseball Game: June 4th, 1838, Beachville, Ontario, Canada
North America's Oldest Pro Football Teams: Toronto Argonauts (1873) and Hamilton Tiger Cats (1869)

I started my first photo thread documenting a recent trip to Halifax, Nova Scotia. Have a peek: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=724898

Last edited by isaidso; April 27th, 2011 at 10:17 AM.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 09:57 PM   #96
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It's not my experience that Americans feel inferior, but this discussion does seem to have hit a raw nerve.
I have nothing against Canada. If Canada was indeed the first to do something, then good for them. It doesn't bother me. However, I do have a problem when facts are distorted.
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Old April 28th, 2011, 10:49 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Just because something isn't published doesn't mean their are no records.
From an unknown source:

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I haven't seen this much denial since Tom Cruise on his wedding day.
Number one... If Dr. Ford is a reputable character, don't you think any record besides his account would have been publicized to prove this 1838 game was the First Recorded Baseball Game? But no one has published anything so that must mean there are no other records of this game...

Two... This is not a Canada vs. the United States discussion. You struck a nerve when you presented something as fact even though there is information contrary to your beliefs. That is why we are having this discussion. This is not an attempt by Americans to win back our national pastime.

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Since when did it become my claim? Take it up with the Baseball Hall of Fame and the Town of Beachville. Maybe they'll change it to oldest surviving highlight if you ask real nice.
The National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown doesn't even recognize your claim... From the Randy Ray and Mark Kearney article I quoted above:

Quote:
Although Ford's original letter is in the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, New York, officials there have never formally recognized the validity of his claim for Beachville.

Baseball is often thought of as deriving from the English game of rounders, and there is evidence to suggest variations of baseball were played as long ago as the Colonial period in the U.S. Given the thousands of United Empire Loyalists who emigrated to Canada during and after the Revolution, it's likely some brought a form of baseball with them.
And finally... Let's just say Russia invented baseball:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=h...=lapta&f=false
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Old June 17th, 2011, 12:13 AM   #98
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Eric & Wendy Pastore at www.digitalballparks.com found this little gem:

Limeport Stadium, Allentown, PA







A few pics from the website limeportstadium.org:



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Old June 27th, 2011, 10:00 PM   #99
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Pics of TD Ameritrade Park in Omaha (images courtesy of HDR Architecture):

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Old June 28th, 2011, 01:06 AM   #100
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Pics of TD Ameritrade Park in Omaha (images courtesy of HDR Architecture):
Wow, shocking lack of character. Nothing unique at all. Very sterile. I guess it doesn't deserve its own thread after all.
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