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Old March 10th, 2006, 05:34 AM   #61
7 World Trade
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this penn station restoration project just gets all the more confusing doesn't it?

i still can't believe that they're gonna jam a stadium into the farley post office building. apparently so far, all this project's gonna do is screw over another building of historical significance in the nyc area. how is this restoring the penn station?
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Old March 11th, 2006, 05:08 AM   #62
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If the Farley Bldg is to be destroyed by a new MSG, then I say leave it where it is to preserve the other half.
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Old March 27th, 2006, 01:49 AM   #63
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http://www.nydailynews.com/news/loca...p-341374c.html
MSG in tax tussle

Won't move if not exempt

BY LORE CROGHAN
DAILY NEWS BUSINESS WRITER

We want our tax break - or we won't go.

That's the word from Madison Square Garden, whose owner is playing hardball - insisting on keeping the famed arena's $11-million-a-year city property tax exemption if it moves a block west into the renovated Farley Post Office, sources said.

But city officials told the Daily News they have no plans to continue the tax breaks if the Garden switches locations.

"Our assumption is that taxes will be paid," Deputy Mayor Dan Doctoroff, Mayor Bloomberg's point man on economic development said.

It would hardly be surprising if City Hall chose to take a hard line with the Garden's owner James Dolan.

Dolan led the successful effort to kill plans for a West Side stadium - one of Bloomberg's top priorities in his first term, and a defeat that still rankles many in City Hall.

Dolan has hashed out a nonbinding agreement with developers Related Cos. and Vornado Realty Trust to move the arena into the western end of the Farley building, which is being renovated into a $930 million transit hub. Under the plan, the Garden's current home atop Penn Station's platforms would be demolished and replaced by glass and steel skyscrapers.

Related Chairman Stephen Ross defended the tax break - which city officials have criticized in the past - arguing that building the high-rises at the Garden's current site would create new taxes and make up for the lost revenues.

"The Madison Square Garden tax issue is a small component of an overall tax package," Ross said through spokesman Howard Rubenstein. "With the entire project, $75 million in new property taxes would be put on the city tax rolls."

The Garden's tax break will total $11.6 million this year, the Independent Budget Office said.

The Garden's owners would profit from the change of scenery even without the tax breaks, getting about $756 million for the rights to develop the arena's current site, according to a report by stock analyst Christopher Haley of Wachovia Securities.

City officials said they've seen a presentation of the proposed new arena, but have had no direct talks with Garden officials about any move.

Officially, the state agency overseeing the Farley project, which would be renamed Moynihan Station, said it's taking a hands-off approach to the tax issue.

"It is the city's decision as to how to deal with any Madison Square Garden tax exemption," an Empire State Development spokeswoman said.

Meanwhile, opponents of the tax exemption are preparing for a fight. City Councilwoman Helen Sears (D-Queens) reintroduced a resolution calling for the state Legislature to end the tax break. A City Council hearing will be held soon.The Garden got its exemption in 1982, when then-owner Gulf & Western threatened to move the Knicks and the Rangers out of the city. So far, it has pocketed $256.2 million, adjusted for inflation, the Independent Budget Office said.

"The taxpayers shouldn't be subsidizing Stephon Marbury's salary," said Jonathan Bowles, director of the Center for an Urban Future, a think tank.

Still, some observers believe the city will ultimately support continuing the tax break in hopes that moving the arena to Ninth Ave. would trigger the transformation of the West Side.

"The implications for a legacy for Mayor Bloomberg are tremendous," said Jeremy Soffin of the Regional Plan Association.

With David Saltonstall

Originally published on March 26, 2006
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Old March 28th, 2006, 07:56 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TalB
City officials said they've seen a presentation of the proposed new arena, but have had no direct talks with Garden officials about any move.
I'd love to know how detailed the presentation was and if it included any renderings. I have to think the city will continue the tax break, otherwise the Dolans will have little incentive to move.


The following satellite image helps compare the size of the Farley Annex with the current Garden and shows what might be necessary to shoehorn a comparable arena into the existing structure.

Although the current diameter of MSG is larger than either side of the square annex, the new arena will most likely be more oval than round. In fact, the latest renovation of MSG was to have increased the size of many of the concourses simply by restructuring the upper half seats (300s and 400s) to be steeper and more "rink shaped" than circular and bowl shaped.

Assuming the rink orientation of MSG V is kept running east-west (9th Ave to 8th Ave) the new Garden might consume not only the annex but the entire mid-block hall as well, eliminating the possibility of "the chip" being reintroduced into the project and slightly reducing the public common space.


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Old April 7th, 2006, 12:21 AM   #65
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Alright, this is kinda pissing me off now. I've been following this project for several years now, and this latest development is the last straw.

First of all, what's wrong with MSG's current location? They receive the tax exemption there, and the city would probably allow them to keep it even if they built a new arena on the same site.

Second, if the city wants office/mixed use development, it should keep it according to the original plan, on the 9th Ave. side of the Farley block. The developers could easily modify the plan to include a respectfully-sized midrise (25-35 stories) built atop the west half of the Farley. There's a similar plan currently in Chicago for Union Station, although IMO the planned tower looks like crap.

Lastly, Penn Station facilities beneath MSG and Penn Plaza should be dramatically reduced in size and scope, serving only to give travellers access to the arena and office tower. The majority of platforms, ticket booths, etc. should be shifted west to better serve Moynihan Station.

One more thing: where will the USPS facilities be relocated to? Obviously postal trucks should not be loading and unloading on 9th Ave. anymore.
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Old April 7th, 2006, 03:06 AM   #66
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They really don't need to build on top of a jewel like the old Farley Building.
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Old April 7th, 2006, 05:39 AM   #67
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Oh, I'm not recommending it - unless a lot more mixed-use space is needed to offset the loss from MSG's tax exemption. Otherwise, I say leave it. I like things the way they were originally planned.

But given the choice between shoehorning an arena into half of the new Penn Station, possibly losing some of the station's open space and plazas, or building a tastefully-done midrise atop Farley that leaves the station alone - I know what I'd do.
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Old May 28th, 2006, 02:46 AM   #68
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a new penn station is really needed imo. The proposals looks nice
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Old June 4th, 2006, 02:25 AM   #69
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what i first understood was the post office was keeping the ninth ave side in operation. if MSG moves in, where is the post office going? are we going to have another central post office built somewhere in the city? A grand one?
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Old June 6th, 2006, 02:30 AM   #70
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http://www.nydailynews.com/news/idea...p-357520c.html
No more free lunch for Garden deadbeats

There seems to be a real possibility that Cablevision, owner of Madison Square Garden, could move the historic arena a block west as part of a major redevelopment of the neighborhood. So it's worth establishing a ground rule up front: This fat and happy corporate citizen will have to start paying its real estate taxes in full.

Since 1994, when Cablevision purchased the Garden, plus the Knicks and the Rangers, the company has been enriched by roughly $100 million from city coffers. That's because the state Legislature abated the property taxes on the arena way back in 1982, when there was a threat that the teams would bolt from the city. According to the law, the break lasts for as long the teams play in the Garden.

Now, though, Cablevision may have the opportunity to ditch the aging place for a brand-new home that would be installed in the rear of the huge, magnificent and now largely empty General Post Office building that sits across Eighth Ave. Company chiefs Chuck and Jim Dolan will have to swallow hard and start paying the full freight, just like millions of taxpayers large and small.

The Dolans, who have not been particularly altruistic toward the city - it was their multimillion-dollar lobbying campaign that killed the Jets' West Side stadium and New York's Olympic hopes - decline to state their intentions publicly. But officials say the company seems intent on trying to hold onto the tax break. Happily, Mayor Bloomberg seems adamant about ending this gluttony.

The post office building covers an entire block. The half closest to Eighth Ave., with its soaring columns and famous steps, is being refashioned into a new, grand Pennsylvania Station that will serve NJTransit passengers and be named in honor of the late Sen. Daniel Moynihan, who long championed the project. The half closest to Ninth Ave. is slated for an overhaul by a joint venture of real estate developers The Related Cos. and Vornado Realty.

The state is finalizing the plan giving the developers the right to fill the space with retail stores, but shifting the Garden there is on the table, too. Such a move would open the entire block bounded by Seventh and Eighth Aves. and 31st and 33rd Sts. for office and residential construction because Vornado controls a portion of the tract and Cablevision controls the rest. The site, in other words, would be a gold mine. Moving the Garden could unlock as much as hundreds of millions of dollars in land value.

For the Dolans to insist on escaping their fair share of taxes while being so handsomely enriched would be obscene. If they move the Garden, they must lose a break that should have been repealed long, long ago.
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Old June 12th, 2006, 05:07 PM   #71
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City-State Battle Looms At New Moynihan Station
Matthew Schuerman
12 June 2006
New York Observer

The plan to turn the Farley Post Office building at Eighth Avenue and 33rd Street into a commuter-rail hub named after its early champion, Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, is turning into a political skirmish pitting Governor George Pataki and his administration against the city.

Charles Gargano, the Governor’s development czar, is anxious to get a spade in the ground on the new Penn Station by the end of the year—and, some say, the end of his boss’ term.

But the Bloomberg administration and city business leaders say it’s worth waiting until two of the city’s largest real-estate developers complete a deal to move Madison Square Garden into a new arena space taking up the western half of the Farley site. That, they say, would leave the current site of Penn Station open for an ambitious redevelopment plan.

Under the $7 billion deal, the Related Companies and Vornado Realty Trust would take the land currently occupied by the Garden and turn it into a new development of office towers that city leaders say would turn the dreary West 30’s neighborhood into the next Rockefeller Center.

About two weeks ago, executives from Related and Vornado began a campaign to convince the city’s political and business elite that the deal is worth waiting for.

They took some plastic and wooden models of the Penn Station area to show off in a series of meetings with City Hall, important business associations and the New York Times editorial board. The different models were meant to show that the plan was very much in its infancy, but participants in those meetings say they showed a new sports arena fitting on the back half of the Farley Post Office, along Ninth Avenue. Three or four high-rise office towers would rise on the Garden’s old site, between Seventh and Eighth avenues. An aboveground Penn Station would stretch for most of the block beneath them. A 200-foot-high glass dome would permit sunlight to reach commuters for the first time in 40 years.

Along with the models, the executives brought some numbers: The whole project represented a $6 billion investment by the developers, which would yield $1 billion in tax revenues for the state and the city.

The lobbying worked. The business groups came out on May 31 strongly in favor of the Garden swap plan at a public hearing before the state economic-development agency.

If the new plan—which would require, among other things, the cooperation of the prickly Dolan clan at Cablevision—delays Mr. Gargano’s plan, it could meet opposition.

“The chairman and I have said it is critically important to start Moynihan Station this year,” said Robin Stout, president of the Moynihan Station Development Corporation, referring to Mr. Gargano, chairman of the MSDC as well as its parent agency, the Empire State Development Corporation. “I personally have not seen plans for months that are anything more than back-of-the-envelope plans and are obviously quite speculative both in design and financial construct.”

“It has been eight years since everyone stood on steps and said construction will shortly begin. It will be embarrassing to the Governor if nothing actually happens in his term,” said Kent Barwick, president of the Municipal Art Society and the most vocal opponent of a Garden swap.

Vishaan Chakrabarti, senior vice president at Related, said that his company would be able to begin work on Moynihan as planned and complete the larger deal before it created any delays. Mr. Barwick scoffed at the suggestion.

“It is like saying, ‘I haven’t decided whether to have a one-bedroom or two-bedroom or five-bedroom house, so I will start with the front door and the hallway and figure out where to put the bath later,’” he said.

Deputy Mayor Daniel Doctoroff was less skeptical.

“I’m not 100 percent sure that you have to hold it up or not, but it is worth exploring,” he told The Observer. “We will have to wait and, over the next few weeks, we should know more.”

Rising Ambitions

Less than a year ago, before this larger scheme came about, refurbishing an old half-used post office into a train hall and leaving Madison Square Garden where it was sounded good enough.

And it was said to be plenty: When Vornado and Related were named last July as the developers who would outfit the station with shops and a hotel, Mayor Bloomberg called it “a gateway to the vibrant new neighborhoods that we are building over the Far West Side” and “a world-class destination.”

That more modest plan to turn the post office into a train hall is 70 percent designed, and within three months of full approval.

But the Vornado-Related team, according to participants in that and other presentations, emphasized that Moynihan would attract just 20 percent of Penn Station’s commuter traffic. (Mr. Stout said that number would increase to 33 percent once the rezoned Hudson Yards area gets developed.)

“I think what is incumbent upon everyone,” Mr. Doctoroff said, “is that while there is an existing plan, albeit in a very preliminary stage, we should stop and think about whether there is not a combined deal that makes more sense and can be done more expeditiously.”

That’s a complex problem. For one thing, Madison Square Garden, which would not comment for this story, says it will not move unless it gets to bring its property-tax exemption to its new location. Mr. Doctoroff has so far refused. (Its primary owners, the Dolans, fiercely opposed his West Side stadium plan last year.)

For another thing, it took about 10 years to cobble together the half-billion dollars in public funding for acquisition and construction of Moynihan Station. The resurrected Penn Station would cost, by one estimate, another billion dollars—and Vornado and Related are not going to pay for all of it.

The catch is that, eventually, certain decisions will have to be made. The larger plan will add about 12 months to the design and review process, along with any time that Related, Vornado, the Dolans and City Hall spend negotiating final details. Will those details be ironed out by the time construction reaches critical junctures?

Under the original plan, the intermodal hall—an area where people could check into their flights and take the train to J.F.K.—would go between the east and west halves of Farley. If the Garden deal comes through, the hall would go on the east side of Eighth Avenue as part of the new Penn Station.

The Dolans are also reportedly insisting that its patrons be allowed to enter from Eighth Avenue, through the train station.

“There is a reality that if you go this route, you would not go as quickly,” said Richard Anderson, the president of the New York Building Congress, which gave measured support for the arena swap at the public hearing. “It will certainly take longer to do. On the other hand, the straightforward Moynihan Station plan has not gotten off the ground.

“If you have the right project,” he said, “sometimes it will take less time than the wrong project, especially if there are powerful economic incentives on all sides. If this is the right project, everyone will rally behind it.”
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Old June 13th, 2006, 01:40 AM   #72
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I would rather they not move MSG, b/c it will just lead to higher ticket prices when we already the price of the some of the events right now.
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Old June 16th, 2006, 08:03 AM   #73
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Even with connections in with Cablevision, I cant get any details. But it is my understanding that the exterior facade will be untouched but the stadium will stick out above the current roof of the west end of the stadium. I don't know if its going to be clad in limestone like the existing facade or if it will be a steel and glass structure reminicent of a mini hearst
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Old July 4th, 2006, 01:30 AM   #74
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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/03/ny...mbrfs-006.html
East Rutherford: Work Starts on New York-Meadowlands Train Link

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: July 3, 2006

Construction has begun on a rail line to link the Meadowlands sports complex with Pennsylvania Station in New York, as well as with New Jersey Transit lines around New Jersey. The rail line, about 2.5 miles long, will be capable of transporting 7,000 people per hour to an event. For New Jersey riders, the line will start in Hoboken, stop at the Secaucus Junction station and continue to a station about 100 feet from a new $1 billion stadium in the Meadowlands, which is scheduled to open in 2010. Fans coming from Pennsylvania Station in New York would transfer at Secaucus. The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey is financing the $150 million rail line expansion, which is scheduled to open in 2008.
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Old October 19th, 2006, 09:06 PM   #75
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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/19/ny...r=1&oref=login
Station Plan Is Called Dead, but It May Just Be Napping

By CHARLES V. BAGLI
Published: October 19, 2006

The Moynihan Station project has had a number of near-death experiences in the 13 years since plans first surfaced to convert the city’s General Post Office into a grand transit center adjoining Pennsylvania Station.

Yesterday, the Pataki administration declared the $900 million project “dead” after Sheldon Silver, the Democratic speaker of the State Assembly, refused to endorse it at a meeting of the Public Authorities Control Board. A yes vote would have cleared the way for construction before Gov. George E. Pataki, a Republican, leaves office in December.

It was unclear whether yesterday’s event was truly fatal, or merely an attempt by Democrats to deny Mr. Pataki a legacy project. In fact, this project, or even a grander one that includes moving Madison Square Garden, could be revived next year, presumably by Attorney General Eliot Spitzer, the leading candidate for governor.

But any delay carries political and financial risks. Construction costs could escalate, federal financing could disappear or the project could become mired in lawsuits.

“This project is dead,” Charles A. Gargano, the governor’s top economic development official, said after the meeting. “We’ve got to start all over again.”

Mr. Gargano said that the speaker’s action had forced the state to terminate the deal with the developers selected to build Moynihan Station: Vornado Realty Trust and Related Companies.

State officials and transit advocates have argued that Moynihan Station is desperately needed to relieve overcrowding at Penn Station, the busiest transit center in the country, and to provide a grand gateway to New York City. But Mr. Silver, in alliance with State Comptroller Alan G. Hevesi and Mr. Spitzer, have repeatedly questioned the financing and legality of the project.

Governor Pataki, who had lobbied personally in its favor, issued a statement last night saying he was “deeply disappointed.” He said that city, state and federal officials had expended a tremendous amount of effort in planning for Moynihan Station, completing the environmental review and designing “a station worthy of Senator Moynihan’s name.”

“It is truly infuriating to now have to consider those efforts fruitless,” Mr. Pataki said.

Mr. Gargano bitterly attacked Mr. Silver, saying he was playing politics and did not understand the project. Officials have suggested that Mr. Silver and other Democrats were acting merely to deny Mr. Pataki any credit.

“He’s one sorry-minded politician,” Mr. Gargano said.

Christine Anderson, a spokeswoman for Mr. Spitzer, said he was disappointed that the two sides were unable to work out their differences. She said he hoped that the Pataki administration would not restart the bidding process “and foreclose the possibility of the project moving forward.”

Transportation advocates also expressed hope that Moynihan Station would once again survive rumors of its demise.

“I don’t think the project’s dead,” said Robert Yaro, president of the Regional Plan Association. “But it’s obviously not going anywhere during this administration, which has only 10 weeks to go. I have every reason to believe that this will be a priority for Spitzer, if he’s elected.”

Last night, Mr. Silver denied that he was playing politics. He said that serious questions remained about the financing and the legality of the Moynihan Station project. He said he favored a more comprehensive proposal from the developers to modernize Penn Station on both sides of Eighth Avenue, by demolishing Madison Square Garden and building a new arena within the post office building.

Transit advocates say that the larger proposal is a rare opportunity to overhaul Penn Station, but that it would also be enormously profitable for the developers, who would build a glass canopy over Penn Station, as well as a shopping mall, office towers, a hotel and residential buildings.

But that proposal is still in a nascent stage and has not been publicly unveiled, and has no funding for the estimated $1 billion cost of renovating Penn Station.

Mr. Silver said he offered a compromise yesterday: to approve the $230 million purchase of the post office building and to debate the merits of the proposals in the future. But the Pataki administration rejected the idea.

“There is no reason it shouldn’t be done,” Mr. Silver said of the Farley purchase. “It’s all about photo-ops and cornerstones for them.”
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Old March 25th, 2007, 03:39 PM   #76
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Why they would call Penn station, Moynihan?
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Old March 26th, 2007, 02:51 PM   #77
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Because the senator who championed the idea of turning the post office into a "new Penn" was Patrick Moynihan.
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Old April 10th, 2007, 11:07 PM   #78
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hold on, i am confused and i am getting a headache from reading this.
let me get this straight:

1-MSG will take up half of the farley P.O.and overwhelm the new station
2-only NJ transit will occupy the new station?
3-LIRR and Amtrack will continue to occupy the old one?

does 2 stations directly across the street from each other make any sense?
does any of this make sense?

why can a new MSG be built over the west side rail yards. if not there, can't they find somewhere else besides the farley building? i think the entire farley building be devoted to the station. it should house NJ transit, amtrack and LIRR. the old penn station and the old msg should be demolished as they are ugly and cramped. however, the new msg should NOT occupy ANY of the farley building. that would destroy the whole point of building a new station. msg can find its own site. we should learn from the past and make sure MSG does not destroy any of our beloved train stations!
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Old April 10th, 2007, 11:25 PM   #79
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can't a new be built over the rail lines between 31 and 33rd streets and between 9th and 10th avenues. this location is compirised of a bunch of exposed rail lines, 2 small parking lots, and an old mediocre office building. it would be easy to build a new MSG over these rail lines.
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Old April 13th, 2007, 03:01 AM   #80
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I find this plan to be uneccesary, and Daniel Patrick Moynihan already has the NYS State Supreme Court of the 1st Dist, at Foley Sq, named after him, so it wouldn't even be the first thing.

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