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Old June 21st, 2015, 12:55 AM   #21
RalphGuy
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If you can spot these things Erebus, why haven`t the architects themselves or are they limited by cost?

It doesn`t strike me as being an amazing building but it`s a likeable, attractive building that will contrast well with No1 Chamberlain Square.
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Old June 21st, 2015, 02:47 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erebus555 View Post
But here, this is not one of his finest designs at all. The proportions are out and on three out of four elevations, there is minimal interaction of the building with the street level. It almost ignores the street alongside it.
The other two have retail/leisure space. I agree with the proportions... I guess this was a cost implication?

Also can you explain the term visual moments, it is not something i have heard before.
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 09:32 AM   #23
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Also remember the additional buildings around it later on (believe the building adjacent to the South elevation will be next) so it will get boxed in to an extent and the elevation won't be seen in the wider context.

Regarding storey numbers, it's my understanding that the 9 floors includes the fit-out at basement levels too. Haven't looked at the sections in the planning app but this should show it.
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 10:30 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Erebus555 View Post
This is one of the most 1960s things I've seen proposed in Birmingham for years - and not the good stuff either.

Also, what's up with that depressingly bland landscaping on the renders?!
Agreed. The awful 60's style seems to be making it's ugly mark on the city again, just as we manage to make serious progress in clearing the original rubbish. Real sad irony.
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 10:39 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djay View Post
The other two have retail/leisure space. I agree with the proportions... I guess this was a cost implication?

Also can you explain the term visual moments, it is not something i have heard before.
I'm not an architect, more artist background but I'd understand visual moments to mean images that come into view as you walk or pan around, moments that maybe make you stop, rewind to have a second look, to absorb the surrounding. Frames which come into view as you walk by, and which, although could last only a few seconds, overall contribute to a greater sense of aesthetic satisfaction, like crafted angles which could be framed in a picture, which interact with light and shade, people, other buildings.

Or could be something totally different
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 10:44 AM   #26
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These renders do loo great, however not sure how well they integrate at street level. It's a kind of more bland Brindley Place.
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 11:23 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by van heckler View Post
6/10 for me. Attractive but lacks the wow factor.

Does anyone else hate the Chamberlain Memorial?
Reminds me of BCU phase 2 on steroids and extra glass. I like it though, slightly overbears the town hall which I hope doesn't seem lost amongst all these new office blocks.

As for the chamberlain memorial. It needs a clean but i do like it. And whose memory is it in.... Jospeh or Neville or both??
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 12:34 PM   #28
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Would beg to differ with some of the negative comments being made. I believe this WILL be a real quality development matching or topping Brindleyplace, early days yet, give it chance chaps!
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 02:21 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djay View Post
The other two have retail/leisure space. I agree with the proportions... I guess this was a cost implication?

Also can you explain the term visual moments, it is not something i have heard before.
Basically what Tony Bear (and worded better than I think I could explain). They can be really subtle but do a great deal in breaking up something may otherwise appear monotonous and repetitive (not that repetition is always a bad thing but a slight change in detail can really change how you look at a building) or to appreciate a certain design element.

Examples can range from using a small doorway before entering a large space to make that space seem larger, using a different brickwork bond to differentiate between different floors or windows etc, or having a small glass break in a canopy for the entrance to a tall building to catch a small glimpse of just how imposing it may be.


@RalphGuy - reasons can really vary. Sometimes architects might not fancy utilising these things (fair enough, architecture is subjective), or there isn't the time to really explore certain ideas (deadlines are hugely restrictive and leave little room to play with features), or there could be tight finances as you suggest. There's a whole host of potential reasons and I couldn't say with any certainty what one could be for this project. I just believe that certain opportunities have been overlooked.
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 06:55 PM   #30
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This will be fine. The focus turns on the museum and Town Hall with these understated pieces of architecture. The premise here should be...we don't want statement buildings just solidity.
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Old June 22nd, 2015, 09:25 PM   #31
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I've been toing and froing with this scheme, about its merrits and downsides.

My conclusion is that it is way too overbearing in this location. It pays no respect whatsoever to the Museum and Town Hall because after watching the video again,these beautiful old buildings will be completely obscured when looking from Centenary Square which is the city centre's largest open space.

Paradise seems to be one huge wall of offices from the Hall of Memory looking towards Town Hall. The new buildings overshadow the Town Hall quite a lot, more so than at present.

Street level looks awful, cold and unforgiving to the pedestrian with little to make the long walk between New Street and Centenary Square of any interest. The opportunity will be missed to connect these two spaces with more meaning and in a more enticing way. I would have preferred New Street to curve past Chamberlain Fountain rather than follow the existing route taking you up to the old Library then a sharp left turn sandwiched between tall office blocks. There appears to be little greenery also.

However, the quality of the buildings facing Town Hall do look very good and I think that is the saving grace, but as far as the layout is concerned I am not sold and we do have way too much crammed into one small space with too much of the same height. Would have been better to have two really tall builds one opposite Alpha of similar height or taller and one opposite Summer Row then less in between with more open space and room for modern art pr water features curving through the space. We're effectively losing some really large public realms for corporate office blocks which hem in some really important buildings. Just my opinion.
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Old June 23rd, 2015, 12:02 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Bear View Post
Would have been better to have two really tall builds one opposite Alpha of similar height or taller and one opposite Summer Row.

The masterplan indicates a replacement for the Copthorne opposite Alpha of a similar height and the tallest building in the development opposite Summer Row.
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Old June 23rd, 2015, 12:20 AM   #33
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The masterplan indicates a replacement for the Copthorne opposite Alpha of a similar height and the tallest building in the development opposite Summer Row.




Good. Where can you see the masterplan?
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Old June 23rd, 2015, 12:34 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Bear View Post
I've been toing and froing with this scheme, about its merrits and downsides.

My conclusion is that it is way too overbearing in this location. It pays no respect whatsoever to the Museum and Town Hall because after watching the video again,these beautiful old buildings will be completely obscured when looking from Centenary Square which is the city centre's largest open space.

Paradise seems to be one huge wall of offices from the Hall of Memory looking towards Town Hall. The new buildings overshadow the Town Hall quite a lot, more so than at present.

.
This seems an odd conclusion to me given the original composition of buildings also only had a "street width" connection as can be seen here in images of the 19C Library and adjacent school






And as we known the 1970s library severed it completely





And clearly therefore the new development reconnects that historic link













i think therefore it is a little disingenuous not to acknowledge that this principle has been incorporated, and secondly i'd argue it is similar in principal and scale to the original link


Then id happily accept that there is an argument to be had over the width of the link - but i'd not agree with your view that it needs to be substantial wider. - Great squares need enclosure and while there should be clear links these should not be so wide as to make ot all feel like a single 'place' rather a series of interconnected ones. And for that mater the 'glimpse' you get from one to the other leads you much more inquisitively to see what is around the corner -0 to see the next place than a wide windswept vista does (although there are merits to both in different circumstances).
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Old June 23rd, 2015, 01:41 AM   #35
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Quote:
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Good. Where can you see the masterplan?
press see the vision on the paradise webpage.
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Old June 23rd, 2015, 02:29 AM   #36
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press see the vision on the paradise webpage.



Now, you see, if only I had thought of that.
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Old June 23rd, 2015, 10:14 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engels View Post
This seems an odd conclusion to me given the original composition of buildings also only had a "street width" connection as can be seen here in images of the 19C Library and adjacent school






And as we known the 1970s library severed it completely





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Old June 23rd, 2015, 11:11 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engels View Post
This seems an odd conclusion to me given the original composition of buildings also only had a "street width" connection as can be seen here in images of the 19C Library and adjacent school

And as we known the 1970s library severed it completely

And clearly therefore the new development reconnects that historic link

i think therefore it is a little disingenuous not to acknowledge that this principle has been incorporated, and secondly i'd argue it is similar in principal and scale to the original link


Then id happily accept that there is an argument to be had over the width of the link - but i'd not agree with your view that it needs to be substantial wider. - Great squares need enclosure and while there should be clear links these should not be so wide as to make ot all feel like a single 'place' rather a series of interconnected ones. And for that mater the 'glimpse' you get from one to the other leads you much more inquisitively to see what is around the corner -0 to see the next place than a wide windswept vista does (although there are merits to both in different circumstances).
I think the point I was making with regards to the wall of buildings is that this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to right a lot of wrongs, however, the Victorian library and building opposite were at least of equal beauty and so while they did overshadow the town hall, they were of almost iconic stature in their own right. If buildings are going to be once again blocking the view from the city's busiest square then they should be of equal or even higher calibre. The Madin library, if you think about it, did not overshadow the town hall whatsoever, the surrounding low rise buildings did though. Had we just had the library itself with huge glass lower levels I'm sure the town hall would have still been clearly visible from Centenary Square and most certainly visible from Symphony Hall.

The gap between proposed buildings is maybe not so much the issue as the way it doesn't flow from the main thoroughfare which is New Street, we could have have a curved street layout from New Street and the straight passage heading towards Colmore Row BD.

Basically the developers have tried to cram as much as possible into this space which I guess is fair enough as money needs to be made but I really think it's just too much in this sensitive location and some of the massing of buildings looks bloody awful from Centenary Square.

Incidentally I found a few lovely old pics to illustrate how much this city has changed over the last 200 years, I do think the town hall shgoul dbe given space all around and admired from every angle like a jewel without interruption.

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Old June 23rd, 2015, 11:20 AM   #39
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Old June 23rd, 2015, 11:38 AM   #40
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I also still think this development lost a great deal of my own respect when they named it Paradise. A complete piss take of the city and people. No hint of the city's heritage once again, another opportunity lost. People will walk through here and it could be any city in the world, I do wish the city's notables would be better represented in new developments. Tolkien, Alexander Parkes, Lewis Paul and John Wyatt, John Cadbury, William Joseph Gillott, William Chance, Sir Francis Galton, Richard Tangye, Augurio Perera and Harry Gem, Joseph Lucas, Joseph Sampson Gamgee, Herbert Austin and most relevant to the very existance of this forum and the internet in general Conway Berners-Lee. With the exception of a few famous notables, of and Victoria, it's as if the city has completely forgotten its heritage as you walk through the city streets. Upsets me deeply and it doesn't have to be stuffy old statues, could be modern art commissions, I'm sure we give enough to the ARTS Council and similar funds through ticket purchases. When you walk through the city centre you just would never imagine what great industrial and scientific past we have here, oh, unless you have time and inclination to walk down Eastside andcan afford to visit the Think Tank but even that doesn't cover some of these greats.

Last edited by Tony Bear; June 23rd, 2015 at 11:56 AM.
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