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Old July 16th, 2018, 11:06 PM   #1041
Gedeon
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It was easy when whole of SFR Yugoslavia financed the Belgrade-Bar railway...
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Old July 16th, 2018, 11:44 PM   #1042
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I'm old enough to remember similar articles before, particularly in regards to financing of expensive Sozina tunnel. That tunnel now generates roughly 10 million euros in annual toll revenue and has paid for itself in less than a decade.
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Old July 17th, 2018, 02:39 AM   #1043
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That tunnel now generates roughly 10 million euros in annual toll revenue and ha s paid for itself in less than a decade.
There is no way that a $1bn motorway will pay for itself in a decade where the total catchment area is 400,000 people (and not all of them use it weekly, even) . I'd say the tunnel you mentioned cost 10s of millions at most.
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Old July 17th, 2018, 05:12 AM   #1044
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It cost ~70 million euros.
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Old July 17th, 2018, 05:59 PM   #1045
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Spending 1 billion Euro is one thing, but the money is not burned, a huge amount circulates several times in the Montenegrin economy and also goes at least partly back to the state by taxes.

This is somehow like a economy recovery plan since the Chinese are using the money also to employ Montenegrin workers, buy Montenegrin goods and using Montenegrin sub-contractors and services.

And what you should also not forget: Training of workers and gaining of experience. Not to speak of drastically improving infrastructure!

The north-south connection is the far most important one in Montenegro and because of the terrain, there is no possibility to build this connection in shorter parts. Look at the map, the section now under construction IS the short part...
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Old July 17th, 2018, 06:05 PM   #1046
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So if they spend another 25% of their GDP they will reach the Border. Now Serbia only has to build 100km through the mountains.. What on earth were they thinking? Montenegro has just 640.000 People in it.
it would have made more sense to upgrade the Road Network on a more sensible scale.
For instance upgrading the Connection to Bar and perhaps to the Albanian Border as a Motorway (short, flat) and the busiest sections first as expressways and upgrade later as needed.
For instance Podgorica to Nikšić and on to Bosnia, as well as towards Kotor Bay and Croatia.
The connection to Bosnia over Niksic has close to zero traffic at the border and the road is in good condition. Niksic bypass was already built and the road between Podgorica and Niksic is also sufficent (although some overtaking lanes would be good!).

The connection to Albania was upgraded some years ago and afaik there are or were some works on it this year to further improve it. Beside of that, traffic is also not that big.

Bar - Podgorica is 2x2 road in big parts and 1x1 expressway also. So this road is currently also okay and therefore this part of the motorway is not being built right now.

What Montenegro needs is a better connection to Serbia and along the coast between Croatian border als Albanian border near Ulcinj.
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Old July 17th, 2018, 06:23 PM   #1047
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The part from Podgorica to Shkoder i think needs an upgrade...
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Old July 17th, 2018, 06:33 PM   #1048
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The part from Podgorica to Shkoder i think needs an upgrade...
Not really, from Tuzi to the border was completly rebuild some years ago (see https://goo.gl/maps/bkK1daZk8D12 also for traffic...) and Podgorica - Tuzi is also okay for the time being (see https://goo.gl/maps/Xn7BTCRRZtH2 ). But a bypass of Tuzi would be good.
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Old July 17th, 2018, 07:35 PM   #1049
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I was thiking about a 2+2 expressway...to be part of an Ionian-Adriatic corridor.
There were some plans about it some years (4 or 5) before...
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Old July 18th, 2018, 07:03 AM   #1050
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Don't be alarmed if you some military vehicles at Bijelo Polje SRB/MNE border crossing....its just Serbian weapons exports - MLRS systems in this case - to United Arab Emirates.

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Old July 22nd, 2018, 12:11 AM   #1051
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Even Vice news did a piece on Bar-Boljare highway about a month ago:
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Old July 25th, 2018, 11:14 PM   #1052
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I just watched a Vice documentary, and it had some very good points. For example, the model of the financing of Bar-Boljare highway is very confusing and murky. Chinese are apparently investing by giving a loan to a Montenegrin government and in return Montenegrins are conditioned by Chinese that project is implemented and highway constructed by Chinese state owned companies with Chinese workforce. On the other hand, Montenegro is conditioned in paying off the loan, and if it doesn`t pay of in contracted time, Chinese are apparently allowed according to that contract to seize part of Montenegro`s territory?! I don`t know about you, but for a highway which feasibility and economic rationale is very questionable, and for a highway which for now is going "from nowhere to nowhere", and models of other sections of it are very insecure and doubtful, it seems to me that current Montenegrin government is taking tremendous hazardous risks in building this highway, which could in the future be a very big burden for Montenegro`s economy as a whole, and very big "elephant in the room" for a state budget and other public fonds in particular.
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Old July 26th, 2018, 01:32 AM   #1053
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They should have built a half profile motorway on that section north of Podgorica for now. From now on the best bet is to tell the Chinese to fcuk off if they suggest any more motorway projects or even high speed rail...bless the thought.
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Old July 26th, 2018, 04:01 AM   #1054
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Quite the photo-op the other day, Serbia' Barbie doll came down to inspect the works...co-operation on Belgrade-Bar motorway & railway upgrade projects will be intensified.

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Old July 30th, 2018, 06:51 PM   #1055
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From a few days ago...

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Old July 30th, 2018, 07:14 PM   #1056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcfreedom View Post
I just watched a Vice documentary, and it had some very good points. For example, the model of the financing of Bar-Boljare highway is very confusing and murky. Chinese are apparently investing by giving a loan to a Montenegrin government and in return Montenegrins are conditioned by Chinese that project is implemented and highway constructed by Chinese state owned companies with Chinese workforce. On the other hand, Montenegro is conditioned in paying off the loan, and if it doesn`t pay of in contracted time, Chinese are apparently allowed according to that contract to seize part of Montenegro`s territory?! I don`t know about you, but for a highway which feasibility and economic rationale is very questionable, and for a highway which for now is going "from nowhere to nowhere", and models of other sections of it are very insecure and doubtful, it seems to me that current Montenegrin government is taking tremendous hazardous risks in building this highway, which could in the future be a very big burden for Montenegro`s economy as a whole, and very big "elephant in the room" for a state budget and other public fonds in particular.
no shit lol

you guys only discovering this now?
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Old October 6th, 2018, 11:42 PM   #1057
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
There is no way that a $1bn motorway will pay for itself in a decade where the total catchment area is 400,000 people (and not all of them use it weekly, even) . I'd say the tunnel you mentioned cost 10s of millions at most.
I'm in Montenegro now, and you're right, there's just no way it will pay its own way. Traffic is light enough

If there was $1bn on offer, it should have been spent on building a tunneled route from Igalo onwards. This road is choked at all hours, and a bypass route leading to Kamenari would easily get large amounts of tourists paying.

PS: why is Split signed via Trebinje in Herceg Novi?
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Old October 7th, 2018, 10:28 AM   #1058
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I'm in Montenegro now, and you're right, there's just no way it will pay its own way. Traffic is light enough
Normally the road from Podgorica to the north is full of trucks during the week. This alone is justifying the new motorway. The other thing is winter: Heavy snow is quite common in the mountains there, road safety a problem. And a lot of people lost their lives on this road stretch, many causing accidents whens overtaking... This is of course their fault, but a state has to take caring actions for its people.

If the motorway will pay itself off, we will see... But building roads is not meant to generate money!

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If there was $1bn on offer, it should have been spent on building a tunneled route from Igalo onwards. This road is choked at all hours, and a bypass route leading to Kamenari would easily get large amounts of tourists paying.
It's not that somebody came along and said: Here are $1bn, do what you like with it... Building expressway or motorway along the coast is much more difficult than where the motorway is now built! Not because of the terrain (that is also difficult now), but all the other things to look at: houses (the area is very populated), tourism (don't want to look at motorway bridges), connecting roads (expressway has to be built away from the coast, high above it) and last but not least nature protection.

Apart from this, there are plans to build an expressway there, Verige bridge and bypass of Budva first parts of it.

Quote:
PS: why is Split signed via Trebinje in Herceg Novi?
1. The road to the border is tolled (and was built by the municipality of Herceg Novi), so relocating people there is paying the road.
2. Serbs in Herceg Novi and Serbs in Trebinje (and Croats in Croatia)
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Last edited by stickedy; October 8th, 2018 at 11:53 PM. Reason: using motorway instead of expressway by accident
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Old October 8th, 2018, 11:33 PM   #1059
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Well the arguments have been there before and don't get better. I was amazed about the motorway project, but usually one starts were it is most useful.

One must agree that the coastal terrain is not better for building any road, but maybe not worde and there are people willing to pay (and who can afford it). Also my guess was the western ring section around Podgorica for example. Or smaller projects, but more, 2+1 System instead of 2+2 or an layout for slower speed. 110 would be still a progress.

For me its like the discussion in germany now:

Q (by federal bureau of audit =Bundesrechnungshof): We think that Deutsche Bahn did not invest enough and properly in the railway system.
A (by Deutsche Bahn spokeswoman): We invested a lot.... (well but this was not in question!!!)

Its mad. They did invest a lot Billions for big projects like the Stuttgart Station, but that wont pay of any time. For the now guessed final cost of 6 Billion one could have improved at other places much more alltogether.

This use of public money is a problem because there is not endless money, not because it is a bad motorway. To use much there leaves other problems unsolved. Its just good for selfies. If so its treachery.

My question, if someone can answer them unideologically: What leaded to the decision to built the Smokovac-Matesevo first? Where there no other ideas? What changed? I remeber the M-8 was renovated with new alignment in a very proper way for a small country. Why this path was not followed any more?
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Last edited by belerophon; October 8th, 2018 at 11:34 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old October 8th, 2018, 11:51 PM   #1060
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Because Smokovac-Matesevo is a crucial connection between north and south in Montenegro. You can't compare the situation with M-8 or M-6 (that was similar done like M-8), since M-2 is already upgraded as best as possible. There is just nothing cheap and easy that can be done to improve the situation with that road.

With Smokovac-Matesevo you bypass a real bottleneck in the Montenegrin road system.

Of course, maybe half-profile or 1+1 expressway would have been an option to safe money. But on the other hand, big parts of the motorway are tunnels and bridges (this is why it's so expensive), there would virtually no space for 2+1 and so no safe possibilities to overtake.
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