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Old April 21st, 2019, 10:45 PM   #181
dark_shadow1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix2020 View Post
1. How about information about tax breaks the winning company will have, because it provides "clean" energy?
What about import taxes on PV panels, are there any?
Are there any discounts in this department?
2. For starters, I would want proof that the new technology is better while being based on the same energy source (the Sun).
3. https://www.newsmax.com/fastfeatures.../29/id/621537/, let me know if you need more
4. and 5. Sure, if they invent a nuclear reactor small enough and safe enough to put on the roof of my building I won't mind at all.
6. If you watched it in full, do explain how things are different now.
Has the amount of energy falling pers square meter of land changed since?
Have they invented some revolutionary PV tech that has energetic efficiency that is even 10% better then what we had in 2013?
Do enlighten me
7. You refuse the reality.
I gave you a direct link about Australian government funding Tesla powerwall and solar roof enterprise.
Is there any reason to believe, this is different elsewhere in the world?
1. For the sake of the argument, lets assume that the import tax on PV panels is 13%, compared to 15% on gas turbines. Does it make PV panels inefficient?
2. Better than what? And according to what criteria?
3. What does a loan from 2009 to a defunct company have to do with the efficiency or inefficiency of PV panels?
4. The reality is that small-scale energy production is almost always less efficient than large-scale energy production.
6. The efficiency I'm talking about is cost per kwh. A PV panel which can allow selling 1 kwh of electricity for 5 cents but has efficiency of 10% is better than a panel which has efficiency of 15% but is much more expensive and therefore allows selling 1 kwh for 10 cents. The huge progress which was made in the PV industry in the last few years was due to progress in production methods as well as significant increase in the production volume- which have allowed reducing production costs and therefore energy production cost.
7. Come on, what does energy storage have to do with PV panels efficiency? Please refer back to my first comment here- I'm well aware of the fact that large-scale energy storage is currently quite expensive and that's why it's problematic to move to solar-only energy production despite PV panels being efficient.
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Old Yesterday, 08:35 AM   #182
matrix2020
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1. Could be.
Depends on the profit margin (if there is profit).
2. According to the same criteria (actual price in whatever currency units to kilowatt of power generated.
3. It is not a loan, it is taxpayer money, which illustrates how all the PV industry came to be.
4. Not necessarily. Mass production of small scale reactors could be just as profitable as mass production of solar panels (if not more so).
6. I agree, but how does it change the fact that taking up large parts of land (which costs alot in Israel even in Negev) is not an efficient way to provide energy?
7. That wasn't the point of my post.
My point was, that PV installations are still subsidized by the governments.
Rest assured, if some company were to offer only the panels without the batteries, they would have received the subisidies as well.
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Old Yesterday, 07:38 PM   #183
dark_shadow1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix2020 View Post
1. Could be.
Depends on the profit margin (if there is profit).
2. According to the same criteria (actual price in whatever currency units to kilowatt of power generated.
3. It is not a loan, it is taxpayer money, which illustrates how all the PV industry came to be.
4. Not necessarily. Mass production of small scale reactors could be just as profitable as mass production of solar panels (if not more so).
6. I agree, but how does it change the fact that taking up large parts of land (which costs alot in Israel even in Negev) is not an efficient way to provide energy?
7. That wasn't the point of my post.
My point was, that PV installations are still subsidized by the governments.
Rest assured, if some company were to offer only the panels without the batteries, they would have received the subisidies as well.
1. And...? Do you expect me to check whether there are any tax incentives, then calculate the price/kwh when those incentives are included? That's not how arguments work- if you think I'm at fault, please provide data.
2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_o...source#Germany
Price per MWh in Germany dropped from 78-142 Euros in 2013 to 37-115 in 2018.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_o...#United_States
Price per MWh in the USA dropped from 396$ in 2010 to 48.8$ in 2019. For comparison, the tenders in Israel I referred to were closed at 0.18 ils/KWh, which is 180 ils/MWh or 44 euros/50$, which is pretty similar to the prices in Germany and the USA.
3. And what's your point? The American car industry was heavily supported by the American government as well- does it make cars inefficient?
4. The problem is not production but installation and maintenance. A large PV field can product energy for a lower cost than a small installation on a roof, due to its sheer scale- which allows purchasing the panels for less, installing them for less per panel, and maintaining them for lower cost.
6. What's your point? Again, you don't provide a metric which can allow anyone to decide whether something is efficient or not. There is plenty of free land in the Negev- I'm pretty sure it's possible to power up the entire country just by installing PV panels on empty land in the Arava.
7. If that's your point- then please provide some data on PV subsidies from 2017-2019 instead of articles on subsidies for completely different stuff.
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Old Today, 08:32 AM   #184
matrix2020
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1. Yes I do. If you support a change from the current situation and if the change is going to incur increased spending of public fundiong, I expect anyone who supports that to provide good reasons why it is a good idea.
The default should always be avoiding spending other people money.
Of course I expect it not just from you, but mostly from the decision makers.

2. Germany is totally dependant on its neighbours supplying energy when its glorious renewables don't work.
Also Germany has one of the highest prices per kw/h everywhere in the developed world.
A large part of that owing to its braindead initiatives in "green" energy.
Last time I checked it costs less then half a shequel for kilowatt in Israel.
In Germany it is ~1.2 ILS per kilowatt.
Do get your facts straight before posting them.
If Israeli government was dumb enough to follow Germany's path, we would be paying about twice as much of what we are paying now.
Good thing, not everyone is a green moron among our decision makers and most of the talk about "green energy" is just talk.
Prices in USA vary widly based on place of residence and local energy policies.
The figure for USA is therefore meaningless, just as average body temperature in a hospital when you average prices of those with high fever in infection department and the dead bodies in the morgue.

3. Not the cars, just the american car industry.
Indeed when the competition was opened, it largely failed to compete, leaving countless people without jobs and whole cities collapsing as a result.
This proves, that it was unsustainable in the first place and the government was wrong in supporting it.
What answer did you expect from me?

4. I am familiar with the concept of economies of scale, thank you
And no, production is also a problem, unless you refuse to take subsidies into account.
If you think Chinese government (which drove down PV panels manufacturing costs), achieved that without subsidies, you are deluding yourself.
There were no technological breakthroughs in PV panels manufacturing in the last few years.
Nothing that could achieve that price drop you are referring to.
Don't get me wrong, I don't dispute their right to do so.
I just don't want to participate in it.

6. The guy in the youtube video provided a metric.
You just refuse to consider it.
You know the metric where he showed the parts of Britain that need to be covered in PV panels in order to supply its energy needs.
Israel wouldn't fare that much better.
And more importantly, what for?
We already have enough gas to last us for several decades.
Even if it were cheap as you claim and the prices were still declining, whats the rush?
If you are right and prices will continue to go down, we can have the same PV panels in a decade for a fraction of the cost.

7. Sure.
Knock yourself out as they say
https://www.energysage.com/solar-pan...incentives/ca/
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