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Old March 31st, 2019, 11:39 PM   #4041
5portsF4n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Union Man View Post
Good list!

Just to add, you missed Norwich City - 25,785 2017/18

Current season 25,856
Thanks, updated.
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Old April 1st, 2019, 06:32 PM   #4042
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Saracens are another London rugby union side. European champions in two of the last three years and semifinalists again.

Wikipedia gives an average attendance of 12,799 for this season'a Premiership Rugby.
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Old April 5th, 2019, 08:29 PM   #4043
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2018/19 Persian Gulf Pro League (after 24 weeks):

1. Tractor Sazi (Tabriz) - 50,048
2. Persepolis (Tehran) - 34,208
3. Esteghlal (Tehran) - 33,250
4. Sepahan (Isfahan) - 19,170
5. Padideh (Mashhad) - 12,188
6. Nassaji Mazandran (Qa'emshahr) - 11,527
7. Foolad (Ahvaz) - 8,805
8. Sepidrood (Rasht) - 6,291
9. Naft (Masjed Soleyman) - 5,818
10. Pars Jonoubi (Jam) - 4,668
11. Sanat Naft (Abadan) - 3,720
12. Machine Sazi (Tabriz) - 3,238
13. Zob Ahan (Isfahan) - 2,720
14. Saipa (Tehran) - 2,443
15. Esteghlal Khuzestan (Ahvaz) - 1,733
16. Paykan (Tehran) - 1,728

Total average - 12,516
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Old April 7th, 2019, 03:59 PM   #4044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5portsF4n View Post

In England, youre probably going to find plenty of Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs supporters in the surrounding regions bordering London proper.

The London metro includes Reading, Southend and High Wycombe, among many other cities. Obviously, all those cities have their own professional team. And as you say few people would refer to them as part of London. But their proximity to London means they are part of London metro. Because of that, those teams directly compete with the London teams for fans.
Unless they are the offspring of people who have moved from London, you aren't - at least not compared to the number who support Man Utd, Liverpool or Man City now.

When kids choose to support a team they've seen on TV, that team's location is all but irrelevant. Kids who grow up in Reading supporting Arsenal or Chelsea don't do so because they feel those teams are local to them. They do it because they are winning trophies.

I think that's what you don't get. In the USA, a town 50 miles from the big city will consider itself either part of that city, or at least feel a cultural connection to it. That's just not true here. The only connections Reading has with London are the M4 motorway and a couple of railway lines.



btw, you earlier claim of 52 professional teams in Buenos Airies needs to have something of an asterisk against it, as the interpretation of "professional" can vary quite a bit. In England, and possibly in the USA, it's taken to mean a club where players earn their living from the sport. In many other countries it just mean they aren't amateur, but their pay could be very small, maybe even just expenses.

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Old April 7th, 2019, 09:30 PM   #4045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev Stickleback View Post
btw, you earlier claim of 52 professional teams in Buenos Airies needs to have something of an asterisk against it, as the interpretation of "professional" can vary quite a bit. In England, and possibly in the USA, it's taken to mean a club where players earn their living from the sport. In many other countries it just mean they aren't amateur, but their pay could be very small, maybe even just expenses.
In Argentina, the top 3 tiers are fully professional, in the sense that every player has a salary high enough to dedicate their time to practice the sport without worrying about having another income. Of course, not every player has an astounding salary, but even those who sign their first contract at the age of 16 have a better salary than what they could earn working on any other job at entry level. The fourth tier, Primera C, is semi professional: teams should hire at least 15 players, but their minimum salary is not that high (although is in line with other jobs).

Having that in mind, the metro area has 43 professional football teams: 12 in Superliga, 12 in Primera B Nacional, 18 in Primera B and one in Torneo Federal A.
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Old May 19th, 2019, 11:08 PM   #4046
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as the season is over in most leagues (not all, though) in Germany now, here are the numbers for the 2018/19 season (only regular league games, no cup games, no play-offs) so far. Source: weltfussball.de

BUNDESLIGA (1st tier)
80,820 | BV Borussia Dortmund
75,000 | FC Bayern München
60,941 | FC Schalke
54,625 | VfB Stuttgart
49,794 | SG Eintracht Frankfurt
49,668 | VfL Borussia Mönchengladbach
49,258 | Hertha, Berliner SC
43,928 | TSV Fortuna Düsseldorf
41,415 | SV Werder Bremen
40,372 | 1. FC Nürnberg
38,380 | RB Leipzig
38,365 | Hannoverscher SV
28,623 | FC Augsburg
28,456 | TSG Hoffenheim
27,978 | TSV Bayer Leverkusen
26,246 | 1. FSV Mainz
24,481 | VfL Wolfsburg
23,894 | SC Freiburg
Average = 43,458

2. BUNDESLIGA (2nd tier)
49,547 | 1. FC Köln
48,864 | Hamburger SV
29,503 | FC St. Pauli
28,434 | SG Dynamo Dresden
21,200 | 1. FC Union Berlin
20,224 | 1. FC Magdeburg
19,127 | DSC Arminia Bielefeld
17,662 | VfL Bochum
15,385 | MSV Duisburg
13,367 | SV Darmstadt
11,773 | SSV Jahn Regensburg
11,508 | SC Paderborn
11,332 | 1. FC Heidenheim
10,271 | SpVgg Greuther Fürth
10,236 | FC Erzgebirge Aue
09,878 | KSV Holstein Kiel
09,003 | FC Ingolstadt
06,994 | SV Sandhausen
Average = 19,128

3. LIGA (3rd tier)
21,156 | 1. FC Kaiserslautern
18,047 | TSV Eintracht Braunschweig
14,953 | TSV 1860 München
13,895 | FC Hansa Rostock
11,907 | VfL Osnabrück
07,732 | Hallescher FC
07,679 | SC Preußen Münster
07,576 | SV Meppen
07,367 | FC Energie Cottbus
05,806 | FC Carl Zeiss Jena
05,450 | FC Würzburger Kickers
05,225 | FSV Zwickau
04,130 | KFC Uerdingen
03,651 | VfR Aalen
03,255 | SpVgg Unterhaching
03,152 | SV Wehen Wiesbaden
03,058 | SC Fortuna Köln
02,834 | SG Sonnenhof Großaspach
02,519 | VfL Sportfreunde Lotte
Average = 8,130

REGIONALLIGA (4th tier)
It is splitted into 5 regional divisions. I'll only list teams with more than 1,000 spectators per game.
REGIONALLIGA NORD (2 of 18 teams)
2,152 | VfB Lübeck
1,407 | VfB Oldenburg
REGIONALLIGA NORDOST (5 of 18 teams)
4,885 | Chemnitzer FC
3,866 | FC Rot-Weiß Erfurt
3,051 | 1. FC Lokomotive Leipzig
1,729 | SV Babelsberg
1,011 | FSV Wacker Nordhausen
REGIONALLIGA WEST (6 of 18 teams)
7,259 | SC Rot-Weiss Essen
5,194 | TSV Alemannia Aachen
2,681 | SC Rot-Weiß Oberhausen
2,337 | Wuppertaler SV
1,349 | FC Viktoria Köln
1,047 | SV Rödinghausen
REGIONALLIGA SÜDWEST (10 of 18 teams)
6,509 | SV Waldhof Mannheim
5,412 | FC Kickers Offenbach
2,705 | 1. FC Saarbrücken
1,918 | FC Homburg
1,755 | SSV Ulm
1,578 | TSG Balingen
1,341 | FSV Frankfurt
1,220 | TSV Steinbach Haiger
1,126 | SV Elversberg
1,104 | VfR Wormatia Worms
REGIONALLIGA BAYERN (3 of 18 teams)
1,210 | SV Viktoria Aschaffenburg
1,105 | 1. FC Schweinfurt
1,009 | FC Memmingen

OBERLIGA (5th tier)
It is splitted into 14 regional divisions. I'll only list teams with more than 1,000 spectators per game or the top drawing team if there is no one above 1,000 in a division.
OBERLIGA SCHLESWIG-HOLSTEIN (16 teams, 1 matchday left)
0,410 | Heider SV
OBERLIGA HAMBURG (18 teams)
0,905 | Altonaer FC
OBERLIGA BREMEN (16 teams)
no complete data available, numbers are probably too low...
OBERLIGA NIEDERSACHSEN (16 teams)
0,736 | SV Atlas Delmenhorst
OBERLIGA NORDOST-NORD (16 teams)
0,465 | TB Berlin
OBERLIGA NORDOST-SÜD (16 teams)
2,637 | BSG Chemie Leipzig
OBERLIGA WESTFALEN (18 teams)
0,606 | Sportfreunde Siegen
OBERLIGA NIEDERRHEIN (18 teams, 2 matchdays left)
0,576 | VfB Homberg
OBERLIGA MITTELRHEIN (15 teams, 5 matchdays left)
0,261 | SC Borussia Freialdenhoven
OBERLIGA RHEINLAND-PFALZ/SAAR (18 teams, 1 matchday left)
1,068 | TuS Koblenz
OBERLIGA HESSEN (17 teams, 1 matchday left)
2,365 | KSV Hessen Kassel
1,341 | FC Gießen
OBERLIGA BADEN-WÜRTTEMBERG (18 teams, 1 matchday left)
2,805 | SV Stuttgarter Kickers
1,157 | SSV Reutlingen
OBERLIGA BAYERN-NORD (18 teams, 1 matchday left)
0,503 | SpVgg Bayern Hof
OBERLIGA BAYERN-SÜD (17 teams)
0,564 | TSV Nördlingen
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Old May 20th, 2019, 10:10 AM   #4047
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Rot-Weiss Essen is intriguing. Even though it's located among a cluster of major clubs, it's still a fairly sized city when compared to those surrounding it which have major clubs such as Dortmund and Gelsenkirchen, or even Leverkusen.

Are people in Essen likely to support one of the major clubs in the Ruhr?
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Old May 20th, 2019, 03:55 PM   #4048
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I already explained to you (not sure current thread or other) this is not the way people around the world behave when considering to attend a football game. In most cases they support their local team no matter what low level it plays at. This is why you can have cities with 3, 4, 5 or more (London comes at mind firstly) local football sides where every single one of them is well supported, acclaimed and financed.
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Old May 20th, 2019, 07:56 PM   #4049
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Just a few more numbers and some notes of the concluded and the forthcoming league season in Germany:



The first division lost 2,5% compared to last season mainly due to fluctuation. It will lose even more in the next 12 month. With Paderborn already promoted and Union Berlin threating to do the same, the Bundesliga could dropped below the 41'000 mark next season depending on the outcome of the Stuttgart v Union Berlin play-off.

The second division produced rather inconsistent numbers. With Köln and Hamburg two heavyweights dropped down into the division which resulted in a bigger attendance average by 1'500. And yet it's median dropped by the same margin. There are simply too many unattractive sides in it.

The third division, however, marked a new attendance record this season. Topping the previous record from the 2015-16 season by more than 1'000 per game. Kaiserlautern, Braunschweig relegated and 1860 München promoted into this division. These three well-supported sides lifted attendances massively, both home and away. With all three remaining plus a few more favourable club exchanges, even bigger attendances are likely for next season. So watch out for the third division next season.

The Regionalligen returned to their natural level after 1860 München left this level again.

Last and least, the Frauen Bundesliga continues its steady decline. While womens football registers new popularity elsewhere, in Germany the opposite is the case. The title race is even more predictable than in the mens game and the best German players play abroad. Don't expect positive news from womens football in Germany anytime soon.

Last edited by flierfy; May 20th, 2019 at 08:18 PM.
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Old May 20th, 2019, 08:56 PM   #4050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5portsF4n View Post
Rot-Weiss Essen is intriguing. Even though it's located among a cluster of major clubs, it's still a fairly sized city when compared to those surrounding it which have major clubs such as Dortmund and Gelsenkirchen, or even Leverkusen.

Are people in Essen likely to support one of the major clubs in the Ruhr?
Not more likely than people in other towns nearby.

Rot-Weiss Essen is trapped in the Regionalliga, the bottleneck division of German football. It is the division where professional and amateur football meet. Not only is it an insult for the likes of Essen to play in it, it is also extremely hard to get out of it. The German FA doesn't do anyone a favour with this division. And yet, it will persist.
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Old May 20th, 2019, 11:55 PM   #4051
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Not more likely than people in other towns nearby.

Rot-Weiss Essen is trapped in the Regionalliga, the bottleneck division of German football. It is the division where professional and amateur football meet. Not only is it an insult for the likes of Essen to play in it, it is also extremely hard to get out of it. The German FA doesn't do anyone a favour with this division. And yet, it will persist.
Interesting. Seems like it’s got a lot of potential, and could have been as big or Dortmund or Schalke. But I guess that boat has long sailed.
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Old May 21st, 2019, 02:27 AM   #4052
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in their early days they played some seasons in the Bundesliga, and in some of them they attracted more than 20,000 people per game:

66/67 season = 27,118
69/70 season = 20,765
70/71 season = 23,118

Let's compare the attendance numbers of all the clubs from Northrhine-Westfalia in the first ten years of the Bundesliga (if I write white 00000, the team was not in the 1st tier that season). Beware that the decline and rise of some numbers can also be influenced by the team's performance, by moving to another stadium or construction, scandals etc.

63_64 | 64_65 | 65_66 | 66_67 | 67_68 | 68_69 | 69_70 | 70_71 | 71_72 | 72_73

00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 27118 | 00000 | 00000 | 20765 | 23118 | 00000 | 00000 | Rot-Weiss Essen
22333 | 27067 | 28635 | 24588 | 22822 | 23588 | 20059 | 21471 | 27794 | 21441 | FC Schalke
23533 | 25333 | 25471 | 26047 | 22002 | 23518 | 19424 | 19412 | 18294 | 00000 | Borussia Dortmund
28733 | 22800 | 20294 | 20529 | 17853 | 16971 | 17735 | 16882 | 15753 | 15471 | MSV Duisburg
00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 18647 | 16412 | VfL Bochum
00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 20471 | 17324 | 12047 | 06753 | Rot-Weiß Oberhausen
22600 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | Preußen Münster
00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 24894 | 17412 | 00000 | Arminia Bielefeld
00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 20457 | Wuppertaler SV
00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 29059 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 15529 | 26400 | Fortuna Düsseldorf
00000 | 00000 | 24176 | 24118 | 21971 | 20324 | 25235 | 20882 | 16529 | 15012 | Borussia Mönchengladbach
34973 | 31767 | 28941 | 25647 | 24059 | 25029 | 24412 | 19059 | 15112 | 12941 | 1. FC Köln
00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | 21824 | 18824 | 11941 | 00000 | 00000 | 00000 | Alemannia Aachen

all numbers from www.transfermarkt.de

Last edited by Patrick; May 21st, 2019 at 02:50 AM.
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Old May 21st, 2019, 03:54 AM   #4053
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It really looks like any one of the Ruhr teams had the potential to become Dortmund or Schalke or Monchengladbach. Koln and Dusseldorf were always probably destined to become big just because of the size of those cities. But for the rest they all seemed to be on an even keel. Schalke's major successes came in the 30s. So it's incredible that they've become so big in what is comparatively a small city.

I know Rot-Weiss have a newish 20k stadium, so hoping to see them climb up the ranks in the future.
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Old May 21st, 2019, 01:33 PM   #4054
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now you have gotten me into something, I just had to look up now also numbers for the era between WWII and the introduction of the Bundesliga...

most of the time, the first tier was split into 5 regional divisions: North (Schleswig-Holstein, Lower Saxony, Hamburg, Bremen), West (Northrhine-Westfalia), Southwest (Rhineland-Palatinate, Saarland), South (Hesse, Baden-Württemberg, Bavaria) and West-Berlin. The champion was determined in play-off-games after the regular season in the leagues.


In some cases the spelling was different back in the time (e.g. Borussia München-Gladbach instead of Mönchengladbach or Meidericher SV instead of MSV Duisburg), and I also added the info in which today's city the clubs are/were situated in.

Buw now enough from my side with german-related numbers

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Old May 21st, 2019, 11:37 PM   #4055
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Whats even more amazing is that Essen had 3 teams. Just goes to show that it’s a Bundesliga city waiting to happen.
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Old May 22nd, 2019, 06:21 PM   #4056
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Or the three teams could be the a handicap. Fans and revenues are split.

Makes me think of Sheffield (another steel town) in England where there are two clubs with notable histories (Wednesday and United), but they struggle to get into the PL. Sheffield United just got promoted, but will probably be one of the favourites for relegation.
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Old May 23rd, 2019, 11:21 AM   #4057
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You also forgot the world's oldest football club resides in Sheffield - Sheffielf FC.

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Whats even more amazing is that Essen had 3 teams. Just goes to show that it’s a Bundesliga city waiting to happen.
Highly unlikely.
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Old May 23rd, 2019, 12:04 PM   #4058
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Or the three teams could be the a handicap. Fans and revenues are split.

Makes me think of Sheffield (another steel town) in England where there are two clubs with notable histories (Wednesday and United), but they struggle to get into the PL. Sheffield United just got promoted, but will probably be one of the favourites for relegation.
Bristol is the English city that loses out most from having two clubs.
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Old May 23rd, 2019, 01:04 PM   #4059
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Bristol is the English city that loses out most from having two clubs.
I would imagine that soccer not being rooted in Bristol is a bigger reason. It's one thing to have a strong soccer tradition and have two clubs, it's a whole other can of worms to have two clubs where tradition is relatively weak.

Of the 196 season Bristol City and Rovers have been in the football league collectively, only 9 have been spent in the first division. Compared with Sheffield, which has 126 out of 230 potential first division seasons.

As far as I'm concerned, these statistics suggest that soccer has very shallow roots in Bristol. Keep in mind these statistics go way back to a time when players were far more local than they are today. To have just 9 seasons out of 196 shows that the area has never really produced great players, and that's usually a sign that the game overall is relatively weak in the area.

Honestly I don't think it would look any better with just one club in the city. What they need is massive spending to overcome the lack of tradition. Ideally for someone with big pockets to take over Bristol City.
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Old May 23rd, 2019, 01:22 PM   #4060
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I would imagine that soccer not being rooted in Bristol is a bigger reason. It's one thing to have a strong soccer tradition and have two clubs, it's a whole other can of worms to have two clubs where tradition is relatively weak.

Of the 196 season Bristol City and Rovers have been in the football league collectively, only 9 have been spent in the first division. Compared with Sheffield, which has 126 out of 230 potential first division seasons.

As far as I'm concerned, these statistics suggest that soccer has very shallow roots in Bristol. Keep in mind these statistics go way back to a time when players were far more local than they are today. To have just 9 seasons out of 196 shows that the area has never really produced great players, and that's usually a sign that the game overall is relatively weak in the area.

Honestly I don't think it would look any better with just one club in the city. What they need is massive spending to overcome the lack of tradition. Ideally for someone with big pockets to take over Bristol City.
Put both Bristol clubs together and I think you would be looking at a club that would get 30,000 in the Championship. That would put them in the bracket of club that could make a go of it in the Premier League. My view is it is because Bristol has always been split between two club that it has never been regularly in the top division rather than the other way around. Success breeds success and a single Bristol team would have encouraged the sport more in the city because it would have brought a higher quality of players. Players were transferred over long distances even in the early 20th century. All hypothetical because it will always be a two-club city now. If either club did get a lot of investment now they will never command the complete support of the city.

Sheffield's clubs are much bigger but they have often been in the top division and have won trophies despite being divided. If there had just been the one club then it would likely be one of the biggest in the country. Had there only been one Bristol club then it would likely have been regularly in the top division.
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