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Old February 14th, 2020, 11:48 AM   #1081
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
But for whatever reason, even before Brexit was even on radar, UK Border Agency was very reluctant to enter into agreements to field stations in other places.
Because apart from anything else, it's not very efficient use of resources. Say Eurostar or DB introduced trains from Cologne -how many trains would there be? 3-4 a day? So you would need to employ border staff for around 30 minutes for each service, maybe only 1.5-2 hours work per day.
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Old February 15th, 2020, 02:13 PM   #1082
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Because apart from anything else, it's not very efficient use of resources. Say Eurostar or DB introduced trains from Cologne -how many trains would there be? 3-4 a day? So you would need to employ border staff for around 30 minutes for each service, maybe only 1.5-2 hours work per day.
How is this done in airports then? I assume not every airport in the world that has any flights to the UK has a UK border control post, that would be insane. I really don’t know enough about airports or border controls, but if that works for vehicles that fly in the air, why would it be impossible for vehicles that run on rails?
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Old February 15th, 2020, 04:30 PM   #1083
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When you take a plane, international flights have border controls on each end, for the countries where you are.

Before Schengen, controls were done during the trip on international trains within Europe, but in this case you could pass through multiple countries in a journey. In night trains, you usually handled your passport to the train staff.

The current situation for Eurostar and the channel tunnel will probably change once the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland stops following the rules for freedom of movement in the European Union.
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Old February 15th, 2020, 05:14 PM   #1084
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https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51512831

HS2: UK in talks with China over construction of high-speed line

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The UK and China have held "preliminary discussions" over giving Beijing's state-owned railway firm a role in building the HS2 high-speed rail line.

However, government officials said no "concrete commitments" had been made.

China's state railway company said it could build the line in just five years and at a much lower cost, according to a letter seen by Building magazine.

But Conservative MP Tom Tugendhat warned letting CRCC build HS2 would be "extremely questionable".

It comes after Boris Johnson this week approved the controversial HS2 scheme.

This was despite an official review warning costs could reach over £100bn, against a budget of £62bn.Under current plans, the final stretch of the line is not due to be completed until 2040 - although Mr Johnson has said he wants that brought forward to 2035.

However, Building magazine reported that the China Railway Construction Corporation (CRCC) had written to HS2 Ltd's chief executive last month, saying it could build the line by the middle of the decade, for a much reduced price tag.

Any move to give Beijing a further role in the UK's infrastructure would almost certainly prove controversial, after Mr Johnson reportedly incurred the wrath of US President Donald Trump - as well as upsetting many Tory MPs - with his decision to allow tech giant Huawei to supply equipment for the 5G mobile network.

However, British officials are said to be sceptical that it could operate in the same way in a democracy with property rights, protected landscapes and powerful lobbying groups.
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Old February 16th, 2020, 12:11 AM   #1085
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How is this done in airports then? I assume not every airport in the world that has any flights to the UK has a UK border control post, that would be insane. I really don’t know enough about airports or border controls, but if that works for vehicles that fly in the air, why would it be impossible for vehicles that run on rails?
It's down to the UK government's insistence that passengers are checked before they get on the train. From memory it's because you can put people straight back on a return flight if you don't allow them entry, but by train they are already considered to have entered the country if they have travelled through it to their destination, and can't be so easily deported
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Old February 16th, 2020, 07:33 PM   #1086
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https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51512831

HS2: UK in talks with China over construction of high-speed line
First, the Boris Johnson government allows China's Huawei to infiltrate the UK telecom infrastructure thought the 5G, now they will finance the Chinese regimen through the HS2. This is disgusting
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Old February 16th, 2020, 09:27 PM   #1087
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Hs2 Curzon Street station will transform the Eastside area of the city centre of Birmingham.









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Old February 16th, 2020, 09:53 PM   #1088
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First, the Boris Johnson government allows China's Huawei to infiltrate the UK telecom infrastructure thought the 5G, now they will finance the Chinese regimen through the HS2. This is disgusting
China to rescue!!!

China will built this under budget and on time. If you want high speed railroads look no further.
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Old February 17th, 2020, 01:35 AM   #1089
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No thank you. I'd rather have North Korea constructing our railways than China.

If we are to have a foreign country build our railroads, I'll take the French, Spanish or Japanese over China any day.

Last edited by Svartmetall; February 17th, 2020 at 01:51 AM.
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Old February 17th, 2020, 04:14 AM   #1090
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No thank you. I'd rather have North Korea constructing our railways than China.

If we are to have a foreign country build our railroads, I'll take the French, Spanish or Japanese over China any day.
Sure, go ahead and pay more. much more. and wait longer. much longer

No one has Chinese know/how and equipment when it comes to high speed rail thanks to intense construction effort of the last decade. Stats prove this. I think one needs to have ulterior motives not to see it.
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Old February 17th, 2020, 08:11 AM   #1091
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China to rescue!!!

China will built this under budget and on time. If you want high speed railroads look no further.


Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Sure, go ahead and pay more. much more. and wait longer. much longer

No one has Chinese know/how and equipment when it comes to high speed rail thanks to intense construction effort of the last decade. Stats prove this. I think one needs to have ulterior motives not to see it.
False.
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Old February 17th, 2020, 09:47 AM   #1092
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HS2: UK in talks with China over construction of high-speed line
For what reason? I have no doubts that China could build a HSL in the UK, but check the budgets where the money actually goes and you'll likely see it is not the actual construction, but legal, management and land acquisition. I highly doubt a Chinese built HSL will be cheaper.
Or is it just because Boris does not want a mainland European company to construct the line, because of Brexit?
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Old February 17th, 2020, 10:44 AM   #1093
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No one has Chinese know/how and equipment when it comes to high speed rail
No one except maybe France, Italy, Spain or Japan, just to name a few. Russia and Germany could be added to the list, their companies are also internationally active.

Chinese companies are becoming very active in Europe and so far they are usually delivering on-time and on-budget, e.g. the new Croatian bridge bypassing Bosnia, but it's totally nonsense to say that good rail or bridge or road building technology is available only from China.

Also note that construction times are often dominated not by technology but by processes like land acquisition, local opposition, court appeals, change of mind of politicians, commissioning paperwork and involvement of the governments. The know-how of the workers and of the companies have little influence on all these aspects.
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Old February 17th, 2020, 11:17 AM   #1094
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No one except maybe France, Italy, Spain or Japan, just to name a few. Russia and Germany could be added to the list, their companies are also internationally active.

Chinese companies are becoming very active in Europe and so far they are usually delivering on-time and on-budget, e.g. the new Croatian bridge bypassing Bosnia, but it's totally nonsense to say that good rail or bridge or road building technology is available only from China.

Also note that construction times are often dominated not by technology but by processes like land acquisition, local opposition, court appeals, change of mind of politicians, commissioning paperwork and involvement of the governments. The know-how of the workers and of the companies have little influence on all these aspects.

Agree with most of your post.

But in regards of experience of Chinese companies in Europe, it is rather mixed so far. They failed in Poland when they tried to get involved with motorway construction couple of years ago, they had to be kicked out eventually.

The problem is what you highlighted. They struggled to get local subcontractors and deal with all sort of issues, legal, planning, quality control etc.

Let's face it, nobody will allow them to ship-in thousands of their own builders to Britain and pay them according to the Chinese rates. They will still have to follow all the local processes and regulations.
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Old February 17th, 2020, 11:19 AM   #1095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Sure, go ahead and pay more. much more. and wait longer. much longer

No one has Chinese know/how and equipment when it comes to high speed rail thanks to intense construction effort of the last decade. Stats prove this. I think one needs to have ulterior motives not to see it.
Better that than become another stooge for the CCP. The less we have to do with the CCP the better.

Plus, China is not the only country with this knowhow at all - there are HSR projects that are just as successful, though true the scale of the Chinese efforts is on another level, but that is Bourne out of necessity (massive population and area to cover) rather than some intrinsic superiority of the Chinese people like you imply.
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Old February 17th, 2020, 12:13 PM   #1096
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No one except maybe France, Italy, Spain or Japan, just to name a few. Russia and Germany could be added to the list, their companies are also internationally active.

Chinese companies are becoming very active in Europe and so far they are usually delivering on-time and on-budget, e.g. the new Croatian bridge bypassing Bosnia, but it's totally nonsense to say that good rail or bridge or road building technology is available only from China.

Also note that construction times are often dominated not by technology but by processes like land acquisition, local opposition, court appeals, change of mind of politicians, commissioning paperwork and involvement of the governments. The know-how of the workers and of the companies have little influence on all these aspects.
There have been at least 3 road projects contracted out to Chinese firms that suffered significant setbacks in Norway. The first reaction of the companies was to blame Norwegian standards. In another bridge project, they complain their hands are 'tied' in terms of having to follow Norwegian work rules and on a third project substandard steel from a sister firm was delivered... and then have to be replaced.

European construction companies don't lack expertise to build anything, really. They can access capital as well, if need so. Issues revolve more around project management on the planning authority side, land expropriation, lawsuits that drag on and on, and political decisions during the project execution to make last-minute changes or modifications, always very costly in terms of timeline and money, to appease some local disgruntled constituency.

I have little doubts some communities that are now saying "we don't need this railway" will be first on the list to demand some new now-unplanned station to give them easier access, and then whine that most trians are just passing through without stopping (like folks that use the Mediopadana station in Italy).
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Old February 17th, 2020, 06:50 PM   #1097
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I don't want to offend anyone but I don't know how to describe "anyone but China" attitude anything but simple racism.

Like it or not China is the leader when it comes to high speed rail construction. The experience Chinese engineers gain in manufacturing, project management and design in a single year is equal to (or probably more than) that of Japanese/French engineers gain in a decade.

And since all the equipment/material produced in scale, it is simply cheaper. Cannot be beaten in price.

Of course, the land acquisition and where the route will pass depends on UK government. These aspects of the projects have nothing to do with who constructs the railroad.

but hey.. if you cannot bear the Chinese companies working and delivering cheaper and faster for your own good... what can I say..?
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Old February 17th, 2020, 07:09 PM   #1098
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I don’t think anyone is saying that Chinese engineers couldn’t design HS2, I think the point is that the UK government are only talking to them because Chinese projects come out cheaper.

Could we also build HS2 if we slashed workers pay/rights/conditions, built using local steel made at high volume, and refused to compensate land owners along the route? Yes. Can Chinese engineers make that happen here? No.

The wage differences alone are massive - could we pay construction workers here to build HS2 for as little as £240 a month?

What is the cost to transport steel around China compared to shipping it here? Massive difference to doing so in China. Will UK business be able to supply equipment here at Chinese prices? Don’t we specifically have steel tariffs to support this as a key local industry?

It’s unrealistic to think that Chinese engineers could recreate the entire mining through to manufacturing and construction chains in the UK for the same price whilst conforming to UK/EU standards and regulations.

I’m sure there will be operational ways to reduce costs, plenty worth discussing, but I’d imagine that the design and management processes here should already be fairly robust.

TLDR: imported steel from China costs more than it does in China, we can’t pay UK workers £240 a month to keep down costs
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Old February 17th, 2020, 10:11 PM   #1099
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
I don't want to offend anyone but I don't know how to describe "anyone but China" attitude anything but simple racism.

Like it or not China is the leader when it comes to high speed rail construction. The experience Chinese engineers gain in manufacturing, project management and design in a single year is equal to (or probably more than) that of Japanese/French engineers gain in a decade.

And since all the equipment/material produced in scale, it is simply cheaper. Cannot be beaten in price.

Of course, the land acquisition and where the route will pass depends on UK government. These aspects of the projects have nothing to do with who constructs the railroad.

but hey.. if you cannot bear the Chinese companies working and delivering cheaper and faster for your own good... what can I say..?
Yep I am so racist I married one. Nice try but playing the racism card every time someone says they don't want the Chinese government run companies involved means you'll be saying that a lot.

You might want to be a bit more humble too. If it were not poaching technology from the Germans and Japanese through "technology transfer" and reverse engineering you would not be as far along you are.

Anyway, I will leave you to your Wenzhou crash. I would rather go with shinkansen technology for safety. You might design and build a lot, but number does not necessarily translate to quality, and given some of the "quality" I've witnessed in China I will go with other, more mature, tried and tested products.

Also you will not be importing your labour laws, workforce or your construction practices here. There is simply no guarantee you can extrapolate costs of the project in China to what you would face here.

Last edited by Svartmetall; February 17th, 2020 at 10:47 PM.
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Old February 17th, 2020, 11:19 PM   #1100
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Yep I am so racist I married one. Nice try but playing the racism card every time someone says they don't want the Chinese government run companies involved means you'll be saying that a lot.

You might want to be a bit more humble too. If it were not poaching technology from the Germans and Japanese through "technology transfer" and reverse engineering you would not be as far along you are.

Anyway, I will leave you to your Wenzhou crash. I would rather go with shinkansen technology for safety. You might design and build a lot, but number does not necessarily translate to quality, and given some of the "quality" I've witnessed in China I will go with other, more mature, tried and tested products.

Also you will not be importing your labour laws, workforce or your construction practices here. There is simply no guarantee you can extrapolate costs of the project in China to what you would face here.
I will leave you with many many train crashes in Germany, Spain and all the countries you listed and picked over China.

(I know, *now*, you singled out Japan because they didn't have one with high speed trains "in operation" so smart ) China railroads are extremely safe. Safer than any "Western" country you want to name even Japan if you include slow trains.

You also wrote you even prefer North Korea so obviously you have a special issue with Chinese companies. That is called, let's say, discrimination if we have to use a nicer word. Keep discriminating. That will be very good for you.

By the way news flash, Chinese are building a nuclear power plant in UK. ! You should protest against that. Frankly, that would be 10x more logical than going against high speed railroad construction. lol.
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