U/C | SYDNEY | Metro: City & Southwest (Chatswood to Sydenham and Bankstown) - Page 324 - SkyscraperCity
 

forums map | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Continental Forums > OZScrapers > Urban Spaces > Transportation

Transportation Trains, planes and automobiles.


Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 18th, 2019, 09:25 AM   #6461
Gimble
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,403
Likes (Received): 1272

I know why it isn’t connecting now. I’m talking about 10+ years from now once Metro West is opened and CoS has finally built Town Hall Square(although 10 years might be optimistic on that one).

Having 5+ years of Pitt Street Metro operating independently with Metro interchange at Martin Place and Central will be habit forming for commuters and will naturally relieve pressure on Town Hall.

However, longer term there should be a wide subterranean passage linking Town Hall Station via Town Hall Square to Pitt Street North, Metro West and onto Wynyard.
__________________

Trances liked this post
Gimble no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old September 18th, 2019, 09:42 AM   #6462
prp002
Registered User
 
prp002's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Albion Park Rail
Posts: 8,701
Likes (Received): 4320

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimble View Post
I know why it isnt connecting now. Im talking about 10+ years from now once Metro West is opened and CoS has finally built Town Hall Square(although 10 years might be optimistic on that one).

Having 5+ years of Pitt Street Metro operating independently with Metro interchange at Martin Place and Central will be habit forming for commuters and will naturally relieve pressure on Town Hall.

However, longer term there should be a wide subterranean passage linking Town Hall Station via Town Hall Square to Pitt Street North, Metro West and onto Wynyard.
when the $87m cloud arch gets installed.
prp002 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2019, 09:56 AM   #6463
Ernie Purrnie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 60
Likes (Received): 78

If I were one of the guys who pitched for the Pitt St north station redevelopment rights, I would have kept my ace in the back pocket. Build an underground pedestrian link between QVG and the metro station, it’s literally across the road to a plethora of connecting retail opportunities. Go halvies on the cost with the Citi tower owners, it’s mutually beneficial.
__________________

Trances, Macca-GC liked this post
Ernie Purrnie está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old September 18th, 2019, 11:50 AM   #6464
Jabbawookie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 828
Likes (Received): 382

I thought there was provision for a tunnel from the first level at the north end through to a future Town Hall Square (Like what they've done at Castle Hill). Hopefully the station name will then be changed from Pitt St to Town Hall Square.
Jabbawookie no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2019, 12:35 PM   #6465
Myron
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 180
Likes (Received): 107

Will there be any connection between Victoria Cross station and current Nth Sydney station?
Myron no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2019, 12:50 PM   #6466
moz999
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,551
Likes (Received): 603

Way too far apart..
If you cross through the shopping mall and out at Brett Whitely Place, there is almost a covered awning all the way.
moz999 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2019, 01:19 PM   #6467
DAJAN
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,332
Likes (Received): 1228

Quote:
Originally Posted by moz999 View Post
Way too far apart..
If you cross through the shopping mall and out at Brett Whitely Place, there is almost a covered awning all the way.
I vaguely recall a concept plan some time back, that had the tunnel from the shopping mall extended into the Metro concourse. Is that not on the cards?
DAJAN no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2019, 01:50 PM   #6468
df1
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 191
Likes (Received): 61

Quote:
Originally Posted by pintpot View Post
Bear in mind you have to net off what it cost the government to buy the sites in the first place (or the opportunity costs for the ones they always owned, like Martin Place north)
I assume the reason why CBD stations cost multiples of non-CBD stations is because the cost of purchasing the site is factored into the total construction cost. It would be hard to make an actual profit from buying a site, building a metro station and then selling it to developers, but my point is that you can at least defray a significant proportion of the costs of the station.

This is significant when people (not naming any names) point out that building the tunnel costs, say, $100m per km, while building the station costs $500m a pop. In fact a lot of the later cost can be recouped in this way, thus changing the economics of building a station vs not building one.

It also affects our understanding of project costs. If a metro line costs $10b for the government to build, but they get back, say, $2b from air rights across the stations on the line, then it's really only a net cost to the taxpayer of $8b. But it's always the $10b total cost figure that gets mentioned in the media.
df1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2019, 02:24 PM   #6469
moz999
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,551
Likes (Received): 603

Better would be too compulsory acquire properties surrounding stations at a pre-announcement value for broader development, a town centre, transport interchange etc.

Might have saved a few issues at say Tallawong and Five Dock.
moz999 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2019, 03:39 PM   #6470
Bastard Squad
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 767
Likes (Received): 180

You need a dictator for that or at least a Government that doesn't need to pass an appropriations bill.
Bastard Squad no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2019, 12:52 AM   #6471
pintpot
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,954
Likes (Received): 1891

Quote:
Originally Posted by df1 View Post
I assume the reason why CBD stations cost multiples of non-CBD stations is because the cost of purchasing the site is factored into the total construction cost. It would be hard to make an actual profit from buying a site, building a metro station and then selling it to developers, but my point is that you can at least defray a significant proportion of the costs of the station.
TBH the rights are worth (very) roughly what the site costs you to buy in the first place

It's true that when you're doing overall costing of a scheme you'll include the cost of the land in the sort of equation that says

Cost to Build = ($x/km of fitted out tunnel, x length) + ($y per CBD u/g station) + ($z per non CBD u/g station) + ($a per at grade station)

However, the cost of the land is only a factor. ANY underground station, even if it were in the middle of a paddock, costs you a few hundred million. Why? Because it's a very significant volume of structure (think 40 storey building laid on its side) and a very significant area of finishes, plus some of the M&E plant (notably tunnel ventilation and power) is expensive.

Mine the station instead of box/cut & cover and the digging is much more expensive, but you have a bit less volume of structure and area of finishes

The constructability costs of access/logistics challenges for CBD stations also add significantly to the cost. As does any interchange complexity

Quote:
This is significant when people (not naming any names) point out that building the tunnel costs, say, $100m per km, while building the station costs $500m a pop. In fact a lot of the later cost can be recouped in this way, thus changing the economics of building a station vs not building one.

It also affects our understanding of project costs. If a metro line costs $10b for the government to build, but they get back, say, $2b from air rights across the stations on the line, then it's really only a net cost to the taxpayer of $8b. But it's always the $10b total cost figure that gets mentioned in the media.
Hmm, actually the figures that get mentioned to the media are largely bullshit and extremely round. They may or may not include land acquisition costs (usually they don't), they may or may not include contingency, they are never transparent in terms of funding source, for example if there's a PPP element. Take Metro NW as an example. The OTS contract was part privately funded, this private funding was included in the overall "$8.3bn" that they quoted. But how much was it? Not in the public domain

Metro City & SW, fwiw, is way, way over budget. Would make your eyes bleed. And it's a large part of why Metro West is taking so long to scope. Not because they don't have any money (finance is a factor of course), but because they can't afford to get the budget so badly wrong again
__________________

Gimble, DAJAN liked this post
pintpot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2019, 12:58 AM   #6472
pintpot
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,954
Likes (Received): 1891

BTW for calculating costs of CBD stations, the City/SW ones are a decent guide

They appear to be landing somewhere around the $200-$300m mark for the fit out portion, based on what we've seen to date. This includes internal structure, finishes, station services, VT etc, but does NOT include:
  • Digging - this is in the TSE tunnelling contract
  • Tunnel ventilation and traction power plant - this is in the Linewide Works contract
  • Platform Screen Doors, station comms and station based signalling/comms gear - this is in the TSOM contract

So as an all up cost, somewhere in the $500m per station is probably the right ballpark. Add land acquisition costs and omit air rights value. If those net off at about zero then there's the overall cost to the project per station
pintpot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2019, 01:14 AM   #6473
Gimble
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,403
Likes (Received): 1272

So we can expect say a Thursday announcement of the Metro West details and budget and then late Friday the next the day the City & South West Metro website will be updated with a revised budget.
Gimble no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2019, 01:14 AM   #6474
df1
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 191
Likes (Received): 61

Quote:
Originally Posted by pintpot View Post
Metro City & SW, fwiw, is way, way over budget. Would make your eyes bleed. And it's a large part of why Metro West is taking so long to scope. Not because they don't have any money (finance is a factor of course), but because they can't afford to get the budget so badly wrong again
They seem to be keeping these blowouts under wraps well, considering the constant reporting about the increases to the costs of the light rail line.

I'm worried about the recent tendency in the media for the West Metro to be reported as a $20b project. $1b per km for a line that mostly goes through suburban areas sounds crazy.

And thanks for all that info about station costs, which gels with what I had already surmised but it's good to hear confirmed. Would this formula be reasonably accurate:

station construction cost (net of land acquisition) = $200-300m
construction premium for CBD stations = $100-200m
land acquisition for station: $100s of millions
on-sale of air rights: $100s of millions
net cost of land acquisition: $0
df1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2019, 06:04 AM   #6475
bazza667
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 793
Likes (Received): 319

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie Purrnie View Post
If I were one of the guys who pitched for the Pitt St north station redevelopment rights, I would have kept my ace in the back pocket. Build an underground pedestrian link between QVG and the metro station, it’s literally across the road to a plethora of connecting retail opportunities. Go halvies on the cost with the Citi tower owners, it’s mutually beneficial.
Is there going to be a link to say the Galeries - doesn't appear to be far away
bazza667 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2019, 06:38 AM   #6476
Gimble
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,403
Likes (Received): 1272

Would the actual station plans be lodged anywhere? Major Projects?
Gimble no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2019, 07:04 AM   #6477
AtD
Bigger is better
 
AtD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 6,007
Likes (Received): 3272

The existing underground link to Galleries and QVB - Were they built at the same time as Town Hall, as cut-and-cover?

(pintpot probably isn't quite old enough to remember)
AtD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2019, 07:11 AM   #6478
pintpot
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,954
Likes (Received): 1891

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimble View Post
Would the actual station plans be lodged anywhere? Major Projects?
They won't go in the public domain
pintpot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2019, 07:21 AM   #6479
pintpot
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,954
Likes (Received): 1891

Quote:
Originally Posted by df1 View Post
They seem to be keeping these blowouts under wraps well, considering the constant reporting about the increases to the costs of the light rail line.
Harder to hide blowouts on single contract projects. When you let the contract the value is (sort of) known, and if you get in a really bad dispute then it's hard to hide that too, especially if any entity in your contractor organisation is a public company and falls under stock market disclosure rules


Quote:
I'm worried about the recent tendency in the media for the West Metro to be reported as a $20b project. $1b per km for a line that mostly goes through suburban areas sounds crazy.
The gross figures they give publicly (which are driven by the fact they'll show up in a business case) tend to have lots of contingency in them, which isn't unreasonable given where you are in design and having no procurement done at the time you have to fix them. Then they rarely change them publicly unless they have to

Metro City/SW, I think they undercooked from the start, didn't allow nearly enough for interface commercial risk (between contracts), overestimated what the development rights were going to get them, had some individual projects which were ridiculousl underestimated (much like light rail was), have made a dog's breakfast of the procurement especially Bankstown line and TSOM, and look like they're doing a similar job on the management

Apart from that, it's great

Quote:
And thanks for all that info about station costs, which gels with what I had already surmised but it's good to hear confirmed. Would this formula be reasonably accurate:

station construction cost (net of land acquisition) = $200-300m
construction premium for CBD stations = $100-200m
land acquisition for station: $100s of millions
on-sale of air rights: $100s of millions
net cost of land acquisition: $0
Sort of, but you've missed the non fit-out costs of a station (digging, systems etc)

I'd have the "CBD premium" much lower if you can get away without a mined solution. Barangaroo, Crow's Nest for example, and Vic X to some extent

The expensive ones on this gig are Central and Martin Place, then Pitt St
pintpot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 19th, 2019, 07:22 AM   #6480
pintpot
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,954
Likes (Received): 1891

Metro NW underground stations as an all up cost (TSC digging, land acquisition, client costs, OTS fit out costs) I reckon were about $300-350m each, for comparison
pintpot no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 


Reply

Tags
mandurahboyz

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Projects & Discussion | SYDNEY | General Public Transport Thread MILIUX Transportation 17585 Yesterday 12:44 PM


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us