San José Development News - Page 277 - SkyscraperCity
 

forums map | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Continental Forums > North American Skyscrapers Forum > United States > West Coast and Interior West > Local Forums > San Francisco Bay Area

San Francisco Bay Area » projects and proposals | transportation and infrastructure


Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 7th, 2015, 02:24 AM   #5521
quadshock
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,130
Likes (Received): 646

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardinal2007 View Post
Also it is kind of an eyesore having that lot (which is not even level) between the Safeway and Whispers.
No kidding. I used to think that Whispers was a department store or something, and that was its parking lot. Then I actually went to Whispers and was wholly confused.
quadshock no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old January 7th, 2015, 05:33 AM   #5522
Urbanatic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 108
Likes (Received): 80

San Jose has a lot of potential, but constantly reminds me of the Greek proverb "A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in. "

The question is whether it is worth it to participate and make San Jose our legacy or move on to the developed urban centers now. So that is the question are you fine with being the old man planting the trees or do you want to sit in the shade?
__________________

usman408 liked this post
Urbanatic no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2015, 06:52 AM   #5523
quadshock
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,130
Likes (Received): 646

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanatic View Post
San Jose has a lot of potential, but constantly reminds me of the Greek proverb "A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in. "

The question is whether it is worth it to participate and make San Jose our legacy or move on to the developed urban centers now. So that is the question are you fine with being the old man planting the trees or do you want to sit in the shade?
Eh, you're exaggerating I think. San Jose as a whole maybe, but I think downtown has good momentum. A couple of good high rise residential towers that people actually want to live in will make a difference for retail. The new music venue opened by the Blank Club owners should help with the music scene a little bit. As BART stations open closer and closer (Mission Blvd area this year, Milpitas soon after). Right now the shuttle downtown to the Fremont BART takes like 45 minutes. The shorter it will be to BART the more conveniently we'll be connected to the rest of the bay.

The SoFA momentum is real. My friends increasingly want to hang out there, but it still feels pretty dead at most times. When SoFA Market gets more built up I think it'll make a difference.

What came across my mind is what the expectation is for the retail spots at 1SM and Centerra to be occupied when there are still parts of Second St. that have been vacant for as long as I remember.
quadshock no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old January 7th, 2015, 07:48 AM   #5524
robertee
Registered User
 
robertee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Milpitas
Posts: 2,675
Likes (Received): 1435

Quote:
Originally Posted by quadshock View Post
The SoFA momentum is real. My friends increasingly want to hang out there, but it still feels pretty dead at most times. When SoFA Market gets more built up I think it'll make a difference.

What came across my mind is what the expectation is for the retail spots at 1SM and Centerra to be occupied when there are still parts of Second St. that have been vacant for as long as I remember.
Speaking of retail -- It looks like some of the empty spaces at 360 Residences are finally being filled:

robertee no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2015, 08:47 AM   #5525
dirt patch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,999
Likes (Received): 409

Quote:
Originally Posted by quadshock View Post
Eh, you're exaggerating I think. San Jose as a whole maybe, but I think downtown has good momentum. A couple of good high rise residential towers that people actually want to live in will make a difference for retail. The new music venue opened by the Blank Club owners should help with the music scene a little bit. As BART stations open closer and closer (Mission Blvd area this year, Milpitas soon after). Right now the shuttle downtown to the Fremont BART takes like 45 minutes. The shorter it will be to BART the more conveniently we'll be connected to the rest of the bay.

The SoFA momentum is real. My friends increasingly want to hang out there, but it still feels pretty dead at most times. When SoFA Market gets more built up I think it'll make a difference.

What came across my mind is what the expectation is for the retail spots at 1SM and Centerra to be occupied when there are still parts of Second St. that have been vacant for as long as I remember.
SoFA is a nighttime destination, not daytime. When the market fills out, it'll improve slightly but still will be mainly nighttime vibrancy.
dirt patch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2015, 09:28 AM   #5526
cardinal2007
Registered User
 
cardinal2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Downtown San José, CA
Posts: 3,020
Likes (Received): 2358

Quote:
Originally Posted by quadshock View Post
The SoFA momentum is real. My friends increasingly want to hang out there, but it still feels pretty dead at most times. When SoFA Market gets more built up I think it'll make a difference.

What came across my mind is what the expectation is for the retail spots at 1SM and Centerra to be occupied when there are still parts of Second St. that have been vacant for as long as I remember.
For SoFA it will probably help once the Pierce is finished. If Core actually get going on their apartment building that would add more momentum to the area. http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/n....html?page=all

Centerra makes a lot of sense since they are right across from SPSM which has a lot of momentum right now, One South Market is a bit more iffy, but most of Santa Clara near SPSM is very well leased. That is somewhat followed by 1st St. between Santa Clara and San Fernando. 2nd street is dead, Fountain Alley has a bad reputation, and the lot was sold to a parking lot company so don't expect any new activity there, I basically walk on 1st street to get to SPSM area since 2nd street is kind of dumpy.

With San Pedro Square doing well, and SoFA doing well it seems that now Paseo de San Antonio is kind of getting less traffic (or it may just be my perception), but both BlackBird and the House of Siam spaces are vacant and it doesn't seem like any activity is there. Problem with vacancies is that they lead to more vacancies as people think there is nothing there, and stop walking by, less foot traffic means less people walk in or get curious about the restaurant or shop and finally only places that get extremely good reputation or have a regional draw end up drawing people to those places, such retail establishments are few and far between, so I'm hoping that Paseo de San Antonio doesn't suffer because of the success of the other areas, it really is ideal area for outdoor seating, something that the weather here agrees with 3/4 of the time at least (I wish Vyne, Philz, and La Lune Sucrée had a lot more outdoor seating, Bijan Bakery & Cafe, McCormick & Schmick's, and to a lesser extent Starbucks have kind of the right idea of what to do with the space, unless of course it is the city that owns the space and doesn't give them more.

I think it might be something we or at least the city should consider as older retail is replaced with newer retail, if we end up losing such outdoor eating space, Los Cubanos and nearby restaurants come to mind, as they might be replaced in a few years.
cardinal2007 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2015, 07:08 PM   #5527
dirt patch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,999
Likes (Received): 409

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardinal2007 View Post
For SoFA it will probably help once the Pierce is finished. If Core actually get going on their apartment building that would add more momentum to the area. http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/n....html?page=all

Centerra makes a lot of sense since they are right across from SPSM which has a lot of momentum right now, One South Market is a bit more iffy, but most of Santa Clara near SPSM is very well leased. That is somewhat followed by 1st St. between Santa Clara and San Fernando. 2nd street is dead, Fountain Alley has a bad reputation, and the lot was sold to a parking lot company so don't expect any new activity there, I basically walk on 1st street to get to SPSM area since 2nd street is kind of dumpy.

With San Pedro Square doing well, and SoFA doing well it seems that now Paseo de San Antonio is kind of getting less traffic (or it may just be my perception), but both BlackBird and the House of Siam spaces are vacant and it doesn't seem like any activity is there. Problem with vacancies is that they lead to more vacancies as people think there is nothing there, and stop walking by, less foot traffic means less people walk in or get curious about the restaurant or shop and finally only places that get extremely good reputation or have a regional draw end up drawing people to those places, such retail establishments are few and far between, so I'm hoping that Paseo de San Antonio doesn't suffer because of the success of the other areas, it really is ideal area for outdoor seating, something that the weather here agrees with 3/4 of the time at least (I wish Vyne, Philz, and La Lune Sucrée had a lot more outdoor seating, Bijan Bakery & Cafe, McCormick & Schmick's, and to a lesser extent Starbucks have kind of the right idea of what to do with the space, unless of course it is the city that owns the space and doesn't give them more.

I think it might be something we or at least the city should consider as older retail is replaced with newer retail, if we end up losing such outdoor eating space, Los Cubanos and nearby restaurants come to mind, as they might be replaced in a few years.
Paseo will always do fine:Fairmont, heart of cultural district, students and in the middle of everything. The Rep. theater won't be shut forever, too. Downtown is booming and thriving! Second st. gives people an opportunity to revive it with independent retailers and restaurants.
dirt patch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 7th, 2015, 07:45 PM   #5528
pesto
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 15,371
Likes (Received): 3902

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanatic View Post
San Jose has a lot of potential, but constantly reminds me of the Greek proverb "A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in. "

The question is whether it is worth it to participate and make San Jose our legacy or move on to the developed urban centers now. So that is the question are you fine with being the old man planting the trees or do you want to sit in the shade?
Exactly. Rather than saying "let's slap up a high rise and two bars and declare that we are Manhattan" how about laying out parks, improving schools, balancing city finances, maintaining safe streets, etc. Things that actually attract families, businesses and long-term investors.

Sorry; no instant gratification in building a real city. If you want to help, volunteer at your local school or cultural institution, don't shout out for more high rise on every corner.
__________________

RaymondHood, surrill liked this post
pesto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2015, 04:27 AM   #5529
SanJoseBorn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 581
Likes (Received): 380

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertee View Post
Speaking of retail -- It looks like some of the empty spaces at 360 Residences are finally being filled:

The "retail" (i use that term loosely here) is very limited on busy Market St., i.e., right across from the Convention Center. A coffee shop (thank goodness it's not Starbucks) is probably appropriate...
SanJoseBorn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2015, 08:29 AM   #5530
Urbanatic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 108
Likes (Received): 80

Quote:
Originally Posted by pesto View Post
Exactly. Rather than saying "let's slap up a high rise and two bars and declare that we are Manhattan" how about laying out parks, improving schools, balancing city finances, maintaining safe streets, etc. Things that actually attract families, businesses and long-term investors. Sorry; no instant gratification in building a real city. If you want to help, volunteer at your local school or cultural institution, don't shout out for more high rise on every corner.
Agreed!

The likelihood of seeing San Jose become the Manhattan or Boston of our the west in our lifetimes is low, but the opportunity to build something amazing for our kids and grandkids is in our reach.
__________________

RaymondHood liked this post
Urbanatic no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2015, 09:36 AM   #5531
cardinal2007
Registered User
 
cardinal2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Downtown San José, CA
Posts: 3,020
Likes (Received): 2358

The Pierce 1/7/2014:
My apologies for the quality of the pictures, there wasn't parking available nearby at the time.







__________________

jawz, quadshock liked this post
cardinal2007 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2015, 06:49 PM   #5532
dirt patch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,999
Likes (Received): 409

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanatic View Post
Agreed!

The likelihood of seeing San Jose become the Manhattan or Boston of our the west in our lifetimes is low, but the opportunity to build something amazing for our kids and grandkids is in our reach.
Boston is not all like Manhattan. It's not much better than San Jose, albeit it having taller buildings, though.
dirt patch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2015, 11:17 PM   #5533
quadshock
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,130
Likes (Received): 646

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/n...rian-park.html

Will be interesting to see what ends up happening to this plot.
quadshock no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 8th, 2015, 11:41 PM   #5534
cardinal2007
Registered User
 
cardinal2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Downtown San José, CA
Posts: 3,020
Likes (Received): 2358

Looks like the Ohlone may be getting approval soon.

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/n...dtown-san.html

Quote:
The Ohlone revived: New life for major Midtown San Jose mixed-use project

The Ohlone lives.

A year after a major mixed-use project in San Jose's Midtown neighborhood seemed all but dead, the developer has reached a deal with the city that could set the stage for a groundbreaking by 2016.
"We are now proceeding forward," said Michael R. Van Every of Green Republic LLC, the joint venture that is developing the 8.25-acre project at West San Carlos and Sunol streets.

The San Jose Planning Commission later this month will consider a revised project proposal for the site, this time with support from city staff. It's a big change in tune from December 2013, when the parties involved seemed miles apart on key elements of the development and Green Republic pulled its proposal indefinitely. The sticking points threatened to delay construction on a blighted stretch of West San Carlos Street perhaps for years.

Key to getting the project back in gear: Allowing Green Republic — a partnership of Republic Urban Properties and Barry Swenson Builder — to build shorter wood-frame buildings in the first two phases, rather than more expensive towers. And a deal has been reached in which the city will gain property sooner, to allow the expansion of nearby Del Monte Park — a key sticking point and longtime community goal.

...
Maybe breaking ground next year?
cardinal2007 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2015, 01:16 AM   #5535
dirt patch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,999
Likes (Received): 409

Hallelujah! SF struck out for the 4th time, and it's out! The lost its bid to host the Olympics again! Boston will lose definitely in the international bid to Capetown for sure, and San Jose will definitely host the Olympics with regional wide cooperation in 2028! Sam Liccardo will make sure of that! Come to daddy!
dirt patch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2015, 01:49 AM   #5536
quadshock
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,130
Likes (Received): 646

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardinal2007 View Post
Looks like the Ohlone may be getting approval soon.

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/n...dtown-san.html



Maybe breaking ground next year?
I think any development in this area is good news, though it's kind of disappointing (and understandable) that they want to go shorter due to costs.
quadshock no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2015, 03:06 AM   #5537
SanJoseBorn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 581
Likes (Received): 380

Not sure how many are interested in the following information/dissertation (maybe quadshock and cardinal2007?), but I think I've solved the mystery of the "Block 2" and "Block 3" and "Block 8" designations that are always bandied about when it comes to the three (3) Sobrato sites (lots).

First off, the designations have nothing to do with Sobrato or his organizational entities that own the properties (which, as we all know, are unimproved lots). Not to get too technical here, but starting back in, oh, around the 1850's-1860's, the "Official Map of the City of San Jose" commonly identified various parcels of land in DTSJ using the "Block" and "Range" system. The total Block and Range area for DTSJ was bounded by (old) Julian St. to the north, Reed St. to the south, 11th St. to the east and Market St. to the west. The lone Exception to this was the Block where the Market St. Garage is now located (meaning this was the lone “Block” that was located to the west of Market St.)

Each "Block" typically consisted of eight (8) similarly sized (smaller) lots, the notable exceptions being: (1) the Lightston Alley/Post St. area bounded by Santa Clara St., 1St St., San Fernando St. and Market St., which had fifteen (15) Lots; (2) the Devine St. area (think new Family Justice Center) bounded by 1st St., Julian St., Market St. and St. John St., which had twelve (12) Lots and; (3) the series of “Blocks” lying just to the south of Santa Clara St, i.e., running between 1st St. all the way to 11th St.

Blocks and Ranges are arranged on a simple grid pattern; think of your basic “x” and “y” axes from your childhood Algebra class. The “x” coordinates correlate to Ranges and the “y” coordinates correlate to Blocks. In other words, Ranges increase in value running from west to east (the “y” north-south ‘baseline’ being Market Street). Similarly, Blocks increase in value as they run either north or south from the other east-west ‘baseline’. Interestingly enough, this other ‘baseline’ was (is) San Fernando St., not Santa Clara St., which sort of surprised me. Anyway, over time, these Blocks (and Lots) have, of course, been subdivided, re-configured, etc. Many have descriptions that no longer refer to the (underlying) Blocks.

Okay… so those who have stayed with me so far, now to the point: in the late 1970’s, the City of San Jose created a record of survey map, ostensibly, for the sole purpose of “setting” monument lines on several (street) blocks bounded by the following streets: Market St. on the west, 4th Street on the east, San Fernando Street on the north and San Carlos St. on the south. Of course, this boundary includes the subject matter: Block 2, Block 3 and Block 8.

If you think that each of the eight (8) Blocks on this record of survey map correlate to the Sobrato Blocks, well, not so fast my friend. The record of survey map actually identifies “Parcels”, whereas the underlying Block and Range references are merely shaded in. So… long story short:

The parcel identified as Parcel 2? This is the Block bounded San Fernando St., 1st St., Paseo de San Antonio and 2nd St. Think of the Pavilion Block.

The parcel identified as Parcel 3? This is the Block bounded San Fernando St., 2nd St., Paseo de San Antonio and 3rd St. Think The 88 and the (former) Rep Theater Block.

The parcel identified as Parcel 8? The Block bounded by Market St., Paseo de San Antonio, 1st St. and San Carlos St. Think the Fairmont Annex, Union-owned building, (former) Montgomery Hotel… and the empty lots located across San Carlos from Original Joes and the Hotel Sainte Claire.

Finally, you guessed it: my working theory is that the term “Block”, in all likelihood, simply replaced the use of the (more correct) “Parcel” term when commonly used nowadays in identifying these particular "Blocks".

Drink anyone?
SanJoseBorn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2015, 03:10 AM   #5538
RaymondHood
Retired Mohawk Ironworker
 
RaymondHood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: San Jose
Posts: 697
Likes (Received): 345

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirt patch View Post
Boston is not all like Manhattan. It's not much better than San Jose, albeit it having taller buildings, though.
What are the criteria for your frequently-expressed comparisons of various cities to San Jose?

When SJ becomes a state capital, home to a world-class symphony, to teams in MLB, the NBA, and the NFL, an effective public rail transportation system, a major airport, two of the top universities in the world (as well as many more of respectable quality), internationally renowned medical facilities, true urban neighborhoods, a real Little Italy, and reaches a density of 2.5 times what it has now, then you can initiate a realistic comparison of the two cities. Until then, please stop embarrassing yourself.
__________________

el_Fernando liked this post

Last edited by RaymondHood; January 9th, 2015 at 03:21 AM.
RaymondHood no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2015, 03:58 AM   #5539
quadshock
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,130
Likes (Received): 646

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJoseBorn View Post
Not sure how many are interested in the following information/dissertation (maybe quadshock and cardinal2007?), but I think I've solved the mystery of the "Block 2" and "Block 3" and "Block 8" designations that are always bandied about when it comes to the three (3) Sobrato sites (lots).

First off, the designations have nothing to do with Sobrato or his organizational entities that own the properties (which, as we all know, are unimproved lots). Not to get too technical here, but starting back in, oh, around the 1850's-1860's, the "Official Map of the City of San Jose" commonly identified various parcels of land in DTSJ using the "Block" and "Range" system. The total Block and Range area for DTSJ was bounded by (old) Julian St. to the north, Reed St. to the south, 11th St. to the east and Market St. to the west. The lone Exception to this was the Block where the Market St. Garage is now located (meaning this was the lone “Block” that was located to the west of Market St.)

Each "Block" typically consisted of eight (8) similarly sized (smaller) lots, the notable exceptions being: (1) the Lightston Alley/Post St. area bounded by Santa Clara St., 1St St., San Fernando St. and Market St., which had fifteen (15) Lots; (2) the Devine St. area (think new Family Justice Center) bounded by 1st St., Julian St., Market St. and St. John St., which had twelve (12) Lots and; (3) the series of “Blocks” lying just to the south of Santa Clara St, i.e., running between 1st St. all the way to 11th St.

Blocks and Ranges are arranged on a simple grid pattern; think of your basic “x” and “y” axes from your childhood Algebra class. The “x” coordinates correlate to Ranges and the “y” coordinates correlate to Blocks. In other words, Ranges increase in value running from west to east (the “y” north-south ‘baseline’ being Market Street). Similarly, Blocks increase in value as they run either north or south from the other east-west ‘baseline’. Interestingly enough, this other ‘baseline’ was (is) San Fernando St., not Santa Clara St., which sort of surprised me. Anyway, over time, these Blocks (and Lots) have, of course, been subdivided, re-configured, etc. Many have descriptions that no longer refer to the (underlying) Blocks.

Okay… so those who have stayed with me so far, now to the point: in the late 1970’s, the City of San Jose created a record of survey map, ostensibly, for the sole purpose of “setting” monument lines on several (street) blocks bounded by the following streets: Market St. on the west, 4th Street on the east, San Fernando Street on the north and San Carlos St. on the south. Of course, this boundary includes the subject matter: Block 2, Block 3 and Block 8.

If you think that each of the eight (8) Blocks on this record of survey map correlate to the Sobrato Blocks, well, not so fast my friend. The record of survey map actually identifies “Parcels”, whereas the underlying Block and Range references are merely shaded in. So… long story short:

The parcel identified as Parcel 2? This is the Block bounded San Fernando St., 1st St., Paseo de San Antonio and 2nd St. Think of the Pavilion Block.

The parcel identified as Parcel 3? This is the Block bounded San Fernando St., 2nd St., Paseo de San Antonio and 3rd St. Think The 88 and the (former) Rep Theater Block.

The parcel identified as Parcel 8? The Block bounded by Market St., Paseo de San Antonio, 1st St. and San Carlos St. Think the Fairmont Annex, Union-owned building, (former) Montgomery Hotel… and the empty lots located across San Carlos from Original Joes and the Hotel Sainte Claire.

Finally, you guessed it: my working theory is that the term “Block”, in all likelihood, simply replaced the use of the (more correct) “Parcel” term when commonly used nowadays in identifying these particular "Blocks".

Drink anyone?
I think a visual would help here, but the conclusion seems to be that we've been mistaking what blocks mean, and they have nothing to do with who owns the blocks. In fact, there are other blocks as well, but they may have been realigned, split, etc.
quadshock no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 9th, 2015, 04:07 AM   #5540
cardinal2007
Registered User
 
cardinal2007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Downtown San José, CA
Posts: 3,020
Likes (Received): 2358

Quote:
Originally Posted by quadshock View Post
I think a visual would help here, but the conclusion seems to be that we've been mistaking what blocks mean, and they have nothing to do with who owns the blocks. In fact, there are other blocks as well, but they may have been realigned, split, etc.
Honestly it does, I was looking at this map while reading it:
https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/enlarge/28390

But that doesn't have the later "parcel 2", "parcel 3" denomination and so on, but does help with the 1860s representation.
cardinal2007 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 


Reply

Tags
san josé

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us