San José Development News - Page 821 - SkyscraperCity
 

forums map | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Continental Forums > North American Skyscrapers Forum > United States > West Coast and Interior West > Local Forums > San Francisco Bay Area

San Francisco Bay Area » projects and proposals | transportation and infrastructure


Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 21st, 2017, 08:08 PM   #16401
DarkEconomist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,466
Likes (Received): 887

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk_Birkin View Post
a major reason we don't see larger affordable developments is $$$.

another major reason is that government folks want to avoid creating large slums similar to the housing projects developed 50 years ago.
These really sum up why we're unlikely to see large-scale affordable projects.

Even if there was money to do these at a larger scale, we're hopefully past those top-down utopian idealizations of "helping" the poor by creating all-in-one complexes that one group thinks is everything the other group needs to be happy.
DarkEconomist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old November 21st, 2017, 08:39 PM   #16402
bobby_guz_man
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,764
Likes (Received): 632

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk_Birkin View Post
i understood those timelines as 4 years to dig the entire tunnel, 240 days for the downtown station construction.

remember that with either option, there will be minimal surface disruption where there is no station.
So what you're saying is that, for most of the length of the tunnel, we won't see very much disruption. And only the Downtown Station and 24th Street would see any tunneling actions?

If that's the case, then I don't understand the hubbub over this whole thing? The Rapid Bus caused a lot of issues because it was done at surface level, I believe?

Honestly, let's just get the damn thing going. Sitting here fiddling back and forth just waste more time and make the cost rise higher. For the next 10 years the Berryessa station is going to continue shipping workers off to the East Bay, rendering that neighborhood a bedroom community for Oakland and SF.

We need to build as fast as possible in order to start attracting workers to Downtown ASAP.
bobby_guz_man no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2017, 09:39 PM   #16403
Dirk_Birkin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,125
Likes (Received): 1264

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby_guz_man View Post
So what you're saying is that, for most of the length of the tunnel, we won't see very much disruption. And only the Downtown Station and 24th Street would see any tunneling actions?

If that's the case, then I don't understand the hubbub over this whole thing? The Rapid Bus caused a lot of issues because it was done at surface level, I believe?

Honestly, let's just get the damn thing going. Sitting here fiddling back and forth just waste more time and make the cost rise higher. For the next 10 years the Berryessa station is going to continue shipping workers off to the East Bay, rendering that neighborhood a bedroom community for Oakland and SF.

We need to build as fast as possible in order to start attracting workers to Downtown ASAP.
fwik, yes. the only surface disruption for the majority of the 6 mile tunnel will be air vents between the stations. with the twin bore option, this is essentially what the completed station will look like, a concrete box in the ground with a mezzanine just below ground level but with a center platform used for both trains:

after entering the station box, the TBM's will be moved through the box with cranes and start digging tunnels again on the other side:

once the machine is moved through the box, the box can be covered while construction on the station proceeds below grade.

according to vta, they can complete this task in 240 days at the downtown location. the alum rock station is north of santa clara street, and the southern option at diridon wouldn't require ripping up any of santa clara street.
__________________

quadshock, bobby_guz_man liked this post
Dirk_Birkin no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old November 21st, 2017, 10:29 PM   #16404
dirt patch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,834
Likes (Received): 403

Apparently, The Graduate on Second st. flops. They couldn’t close financing in the last minute. The site sits forlorn as expected.
dirt patch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2017, 05:35 AM   #16405
jpk122s
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 93
Likes (Received): 74

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk_Birkin View Post
fwik, yes. the only surface disruption for the majority of the 6 mile tunnel will be air vents between the stations.
In addition to the air vents, the twin bore tunnel needs regular cross passages to be mined between the two tunnels, which needs soil stabilizing grout injections from the surface. Also, the shallower twin tunnels will require utility relocation, even where there are no stations or vents.

Expect Santa Clara St. to be in various stages of dug up for at least 3 years. For an example of what this looks like, take a look at Stockton St. in SF near Union Square which has been dug up for the Central Subway station there for at least 3 years.

If we are lucky, the VTA light rail line will only be shut down for a year, but expect Santa Clara St. to be an impassable construction zone for much longer than that.
__________________

Sharkcity liked this post
jpk122s no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2017, 05:55 AM   #16406
Sharkcity
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 636
Likes (Received): 852

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk_Birkin View Post
fwik, yes. the only surface disruption for the majority of the 6 mile tunnel will be air vents between the stations. with the twin bore option, this is essentially what the completed station will look like, a concrete box in the ground with a mezzanine just below ground level but with a center platform used for both trains:

after entering the station box, the TBM's will be moved through the box with cranes and start digging tunnels again on the other side:

once the machine is moved through the box, the box can be covered while construction on the station proceeds below grade.

according to vta, they can complete this task in 240 days at the downtown location. the alum rock station is north of santa clara street, and the southern option at diridon wouldn't require ripping up any of santa clara street.
For a point of reference, excavation of the Union Square station in San Francisco began around January 2015 and is just now nearing completion = ~3 years of surface road disruption. 3 blocks of Stockton street from market to Post street have been out of use during this period (partly for staging which Mitchell block might alleviate). Even when work is mostly proceeding underground, the construction still affects the sidewalks and streets with construction fences, detours, lost travel lanes and parking spaces.

This graphic for the Purple-line under Wilshire in LA can help visualize the construction timeline. VTA/BART might say 240 days of surface activity, but Santa Clara will basically be disturbed for the majority of the project. There use to be an animation of the process w/ steel plates supporting the temporary road, but it looks to be taken down. Link
"LA Curbed: Purple-line subway timeline"


Heres an image of the Purple Line construction on Wilshire. Link

Last edited by Sharkcity; November 22nd, 2017 at 06:08 AM.
Sharkcity no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2017, 07:07 AM   #16407
bobby_guz_man
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,764
Likes (Received): 632

It's time to get it done. We've been dicking around for more than a year while the cost rises and Berryessa has put in its application for East Bay suburb status.
bobby_guz_man no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2017, 04:46 PM   #16408
quadshock
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,129
Likes (Received): 639

Developer proposes project with charter school, affordable housing for San Jose ‘urban village’

SVBJ link

Quote:
The city of San Jose has received plans for a mixed-use development within its Alum Rock Urban Village that would include a charter school and 94 affordable housing units — marking a first-of-its-kind proposal for the city.

“The point of urban villages is to put a mix of uses close together,” said San Jose land-use consultant Erik Schoennauer. “The idea of having a school and multifamily housing integrated together on one site would be consistent with the goals of urban mixed-use development.”
__________________

sjn, gillynova, Dirk_Birkin, CTA25, Sharkcity liked this post
quadshock no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2017, 04:52 PM   #16409
sjn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 729
Likes (Received): 868

I am anti-charter school personally, but I have to say I like that a lot. That area needs more school options and it looks like the frontage focuses on the school part more than the apartments, which is a benefit to the students.


__________________

Sharkcity liked this post
sjn no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2017, 11:39 PM   #16410
pesto
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 15,067
Likes (Received): 3801

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkEconomist View Post
These really sum up why we're unlikely to see large-scale affordable projects.

Even if there was money to do these at a larger scale, we're hopefully past those top-down utopian idealizations of "helping" the poor by creating all-in-one complexes that one group thinks is everything the other group needs to be happy.
The rule of thumb from Brazilian studies: it takes 2 years for the residents of a brand new, modern large scale housing project to make it as dilapidated as the old place they lived in.

The lesson is change the PEOPLE don't change the HOUSING.
pesto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2017, 11:57 PM   #16411
pesto
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 15,067
Likes (Received): 3801

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkcity View Post
For a point of reference, excavation of the Union Square station in San Francisco began around January 2015 and is just now nearing completion = ~3 years of surface road disruption. 3 blocks of Stockton street from market to Post street have been out of use during this period (partly for staging which Mitchell block might alleviate). Even when work is mostly proceeding underground, the construction still affects the sidewalks and streets with construction fences, detours, lost travel lanes and parking spaces.

This graphic for the Purple-line under Wilshire in LA can help visualize the construction timeline. VTA/BART might say 240 days of surface activity, but Santa Clara will basically be disturbed for the majority of the project. There use to be an animation of the process w/ steel plates supporting the temporary road, but it looks to be taken down. [
Three years sounds too short if Wilshire is the example, but maybe Santa Clara is shorter than Western to La Cienega.

Areas near stations are closed for months at a time and larger sections are narrowed, have hand-sign controls and left turns blocked. Side streets get traffic dumped onto them. Around the stations means two complete city blocks (say, one or two blocks either side of Western or Fairfax) of complete blockage, sometimes even for pedestrians. Traffic is dumped onto side streets. And when the plates are in place the ride slows to a crawl.
__________________

Sharkcity liked this post
pesto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2017, 12:04 AM   #16412
pesto
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 15,067
Likes (Received): 3801

Quote:
Originally Posted by quadshock View Post
This seems to be the trend. Large city schools are so bad that developers will dedicate space for charter schools to attract potential residents. I have seen this in proposals in NY, LA and smaller cities as well.

And, of course, the urban village idea is that there is privately controlled property that can actually maintain safety for residents and visitors, cleanliness, good repair and decent aesthetic standards.
__________________

CTA25 liked this post
pesto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2017, 12:11 AM   #16413
Xynoplas
Registered User
 
Xynoplas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: San Jose
Posts: 416
Likes (Received): 137

So the advantage of twin bore is...
(Somebody please stop me!)
Twice as boring!
(Too late.)
Xynoplas no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2017, 12:24 AM   #16414
usedmedia
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 227
Likes (Received): 96

BART’s big dig leading to a big fight in Silicon Valley

Quote:
“Basically there’s a standoff,” says one high-level transit source, speaking on condition of anonymity because the person needs to work with both sides. “The VTA is not going to build something it doesn’t want to build, and BART is not going to operate something it doesn’t want to operate.”
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...p?t=2b76f956ed
__________________

Sharkcity liked this post
usedmedia no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2017, 12:44 AM   #16415
Sharkcity
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 636
Likes (Received): 852

Quote:
Originally Posted by pesto View Post
Three years sounds too short if Wilshire is the example, but maybe Santa Clara is shorter than Western to La Cienega.

Areas near stations are closed for months at a time and larger sections are narrowed, have hand-sign controls and left turns blocked. Side streets get traffic dumped onto them. Around the stations means two complete city blocks (say, one or two blocks either side of Western or Fairfax) of complete blockage, sometimes even for pedestrians. Traffic is dumped onto side streets. And when the plates are in place the ride slows to a crawl.
3 years refers to the 1.7 mile SF central tunnel. The LA Wilshire work is 8-9 years of disruption along the 3.9 mile phase 1. VTA/BART plans 4 years of construction for 6 miles.

The LA project is slowed by the tar pit geology and extensive archeological work that must be done but basically Santa Clara will be a mess for a long time similar to other projects including BART's SF Market Street heart surgery in the 60s and VTA's SJ lightrail in the 90s. If twin bore is chosen, expect development downtown to slow down until the project completes. Google has already expressed a desire to wait due to the uncertainty of the single/twin bore.

Its sad that every urban tunnel project runs into the same issue. Alternatives to cut and cover are sought to minimize disruption but project managers shut it down due to schedule concerns and extra design work. Someone needs to innovate if we are to build more urban transit (maybe underground VTA Lightrail in DT and N 1st).
Sharkcity no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2017, 12:45 AM   #16416
Sharkcity
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 636
Likes (Received): 852

Quote:
Originally Posted by usedmedia View Post
“'When BART was constructed on downtown Market Street in San Francisco, it took two generations for the core of that city to recover,' San Jose Mayor Sam Liccardo said Tuesday."
Sharkcity no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2017, 03:07 AM   #16417
RaymondHood
Retired Mohawk Ironworker
 
RaymondHood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: San Jose
Posts: 697
Likes (Received): 345

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkcity View Post
“'When BART was constructed on downtown Market Street in San Francisco, it took two generations for the core of that city to recover,' San Jose Mayor Sam Liccardo said Tuesday."
Does anyone know if this is true?
It sounds like a complete fabrication to me.
How long is a generation -- 25 years?
Two generations is longer than BART has been in existence.
And much of SF's downtown's disruption was caused by extensive urban renewal, including construction of a mega convention center, and by removal of an earthquake-damaged freeway.
RaymondHood no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2017, 05:05 AM   #16418
rickupton
Rick Upton
 
rickupton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: San Jose
Posts: 325
Likes (Received): 270

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondHood View Post
Does anyone know if this is true?
It sounds like a complete fabrication to me.
How long is a generation -- 25 years?
Two generations is longer than BART has been in existence.
And much of SF's downtown's disruption was caused by extensive urban renewal, including construction of a mega convention center, and by removal of an earthquake-damaged freeway.
From http://www.bart.gov/about/history/history

"In July, 1967, work began on the Market Street subway and stations 80-100 feet below heavy downtown traffic."

When was the "core" considered "recovered"?
rickupton no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2017, 06:40 AM   #16419
Davodd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: San Jose
Posts: 343
Likes (Received): 343

San José Development News

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondHood View Post
How long is a generation -- 25 years?

A generation is 20 years.
Davodd no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2017, 07:31 AM   #16420
quadshock
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,129
Likes (Received): 639

I imagine Liccardo meant 2 economic cycles...
quadshock no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 


Reply

Tags
san josé

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us