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Old April 10th, 2019, 08:05 PM   #12581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobH View Post


I doubt the designers gave a second's glance to Liverpool's old plans to be honest. The New WHL is very much a Populous stadium and the concept of the single tier end is something that was carried over and improved upon from the final KSS design released in 2009. That stand was actually added after fan consultation, not by someone digging up old blueprints of Stanley Park.

Of course, it's not massively surprising that NWHL has a similar look to it to some of those Stanley Park designs (particularly the pre-H&G version). They were working to similar parameters.

Let's called it convergent evolution.
Less convergent evolution more Daniel Levy and the architects looked at (and visited) many arenas around Europe and North America and included the best bits such as a single tier home end like the Kopp and the Yellow Wall and the best of American stadiums in terms of fan experience ie. Corporate hospitality, food and beverage, entertainment, jumbotrons etc

Nothing wrong with that, but that's how it happened.
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Old April 10th, 2019, 08:23 PM   #12582
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Being the 5th most decorated team in the last 30 years, one trophy in the last 10 years isn't good enough really.

There are many many examples of what a modern stadium looks like in Europe and around the world but let's just take the new Tottenham stadium as an example.

The new Tottenham stadium is basically an amped up version of a number of designs that were proposed for a NEW LFC stadium over the last 20 years eg. a large single tier home end and 3 normal multi tier stands with corporate facilities (some of those designs may be on here somewhere).

So Tottenham basically ripped off our old designs and added a few extra bells and whistles.
I guess the point I was making, perhaps badly, is that we had similar designs, to what Tottenham have built, ten years ago but we're still faffing about with the ARE.

When anyone says build a new stadium I think people always assume it'll be a "soulless" bowl but a bowl was never in the equation for Liverpool.
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Old April 10th, 2019, 09:00 PM   #12583
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Quote:
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Less convergent evolution more Daniel Levy and the architects looked at (and visited) many arenas around Europe and North America and included the best bits such as a single tier home end like the Kopp and the Yellow Wall and the best of American stadiums in terms of fan experience ie. Corporate hospitality, food and beverage, entertainment, jumbotrons etc

Nothing wrong with that, but that's how it happened.
Indeed that's how a lot of it happened, but as I said the idea of the single-tier stand came from fan consultation. It wasn't in the first plans.
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Old April 10th, 2019, 09:20 PM   #12584
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No it isn't but we are getting closer but as I say, I do not want to offend the mods so I will steer back on topic - no offence - I love chatting footy!
I've not yet received complaints and thus far it hasn't gotten personal so I'm willing to abide.

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Funny when I asked you that question I started thinking about it myself, like a list, it is quite hard to do in some respects....

1) Steep stands
2) A roof that adds to a feeling of tightness and claustrophobia - imposing
3) As close as possible/permitted to the pitch
4) A single tier and definitively separate Kop end - with safe standing when permitted
5) A capacity of circa 70,000 - and I would allow, where they can sell them, 5,000 away fans because the atmosphere is better.
6) A sense of history
7) From the exterior, a sense of permanence and strength so stone or brick exterior - it would not have fit in but I wish the new Main stand had used bricks the colour you get on the Tobacco Warehouse on the docks.
8) Discreet corporate facilities but sufficient to meet the needs and financial requirements that peers achieve - i.e. not in your face when looked at internally
9) Not a bowl
10) Something that will stand the test of time and maybe age and look all the better for it (so deffo not our old Main Stand!).

And then you could get into concourses and toilets etc... Wifi if that is important... then I decided it is all too complexicated!!
Most of the elements on Macred's list, especially as to the seating configuration to maximize fan experience, apply pretty much to every fan of every team. Exterior decor is more a matter of style but as for wanting optimal viewsheds and an ability to gather the die-hards in one end that's quite universal, even if that end features more than one stand. Essentially the only reason a designer strays from this is due to site constraints and/or directions from the ownership. As such Tottenham deserve credit for adhering to this criteria instead of finding ways to squeeze in more bodies or advertising space in exchange for sacrificing the general fans' experience. That's not theft of any original ideas, it's both a recognition of their fans interests and a realization that's there's only so many ways you can design stands surrounding a rectangle. What's more, that fans want to replicate successful scenes from other venues is considered a good thing, I say, as it will encourage more owners and architects to account for such fan experiences in their design.

Regarding Macred's desire for "not a bowl" - If you fill in the corners you're trending toward a bowl, if not you're arguably limiting the max capacity or pushing people higher up and further away on either side. Maybe having one end different is the acceptable compromise, but if not I'd be curious how you lot would choose which condition takes priority.
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Old April 10th, 2019, 09:26 PM   #12585
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Mod Note: Folks, comment on the topic or on the material within another posts. Do not make personal accusations about other posters. Thank you.
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Old April 10th, 2019, 11:15 PM   #12586
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Originally Posted by GunnerJacket View Post
I've not yet received complaints and thus far it hasn't gotten personal so I'm willing to abide.


Most of the elements on Macred's list, especially as to the seating configuration to maximize fan experience, apply pretty much to every fan of every team. Exterior decor is more a matter of style but as for wanting optimal viewsheds and an ability to gather the die-hards in one end that's quite universal, even if that end features more than one stand. Essentially the only reason a designer strays from this is due to site constraints and/or directions from the ownership. As such Tottenham deserve credit for adhering to this criteria instead of finding ways to squeeze in more bodies or advertising space in exchange for sacrificing the general fans' experience. That's not theft of any original ideas, it's both a recognition of their fans interests and a realization that's there's only so many ways you can design stands surrounding a rectangle. What's more, that fans want to replicate successful scenes from other venues is considered a good thing, I say, as it will encourage more owners and architects to account for such fan experiences in their design.

Regarding Macred's desire for "not a bowl" - If you fill in the corners you're trending toward a bowl, if not you're arguably limiting the max capacity or pushing people higher up and further away on either side. Maybe having one end different is the acceptable compromise, but if not I'd be curious how you lot would choose which condition takes priority.

I feel as if we already know where FSG stand on this (albeit, a small sample size), as they haven't seemed too concerned with maximizing the size of Fenway at the cost of its unique appeal.
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Old April 11th, 2019, 11:51 AM   #12587
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[QUOTE=GunnerJacket;158171346

Regarding Macred's desire for "not a bowl" - If you fill in the corners you're trending toward a bowl, if not you're arguably limiting the max capacity or pushing people higher up and further away on either side. Maybe having one end different is the acceptable compromise, but if not I'd be curious how you lot would choose which condition takes priority.[/QUOTE]

Re. the corners, something like GG Hughes drew earlier i.e. still with very defined stands but with some corner infill but angular and not curved kind of lozenge shaped! And on the image below, I would have the corner level with the first tier of advertising hoardings.



Appreciate that a bowl gives max. optimal capacity and things like the waves at the top of stands are there for site lines... but it kind of defeats the point. Designers will say Oooo look at this light and airy stadium... and that is not what fans want who are anything other than casual day trippers ( no offence to any)... we want brooding, menacing atmospheres by design. Night games feel better than day games. The lights create a bubble of you, the pitch, and everything else is closed out... no open skies and light wavy touches..... no designer given free reign would design Dortmund's ground. It gives rise to an interesting question.... what is the best stadium in the world and as I said above what makes a great stadium.... if you gave me a choice of going to say the Mercedes Benz stadium in Atlanta or Dortmund I would go to Dortmund.

It is very subjective though... but that is my view albeit I am probably not expressing myself well as to what I would want in a stadium.
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Old April 11th, 2019, 01:10 PM   #12588
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I’ve never really thought about it until NWHL was talked about on this thread but The old Stanley Park design has some similarities to the NWHL. I like both designs but it was interesting to see how similar and different they are:

Might as well quote myself from a few years ago as its relevant again Personally as much as I love the NWHL Im glad that liverpool have stayed at Anfield
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Old April 11th, 2019, 01:24 PM   #12589
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Re. the corners, something like GG Hughes drew earlier i.e. still with very defined stands but with some corner infill but angular and not curved kind of lozenge shaped! And on the image below, I would have the corner level with the first tier of advertising hoardings.



Appreciate that a bowl gives max. optimal capacity and things like the waves at the top of stands are there for site lines... but it kind of defeats the point. Designers will say Oooo look at this light and airy stadium... and that is not what fans want who are anything other than casual day trippers ( no offence to any)... we want brooding, menacing atmospheres by design. Night games feel better than day games. The lights create a bubble of you, the pitch, and everything else is closed out... no open skies and light wavy touches..... no designer given free reign would design Dortmund's ground. It gives rise to an interesting question.... what is the best stadium in the world and as I said above what makes a great stadium.... if you gave me a choice of going to say the Mercedes Benz stadium in Atlanta or Dortmund I would go to Dortmund.

It is very subjective though... but that is my view albeit I am probably not expressing myself well as to what I would want in a stadium.
Similar to Ibrox and the old Kirkby proposal for Everton.kirkby_stadium05.jpgkirkby_stadium04.jpgIbrox.jpg110316_ibrox_stadium_01.jpg
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Old April 11th, 2019, 02:31 PM   #12590
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I believe one of the considerations in developing the ARE is that it presents an opportunity to lengthen the playing pitch which is at the moment at the lower end of international acceptance. The redeveloped Main Stand would see no problem with this but the SKD stand is in reality only just the length of the pitch and if the ARE was pushed backwards towards the car park then the old Kemlyn could be expanded in both the upper and lower tiers by some 20 metres adding another 2500 seats by extending the goal post roof support.

If the ARE was then redeveloped to reflect the new Main Stand overall capacity with the two initiatives could be around 62/63,000 with revenues rising around £18 to £20m. Down to FSG's accountants but the return on capital employed being delivered by the most recent redevelopment really should make this a no brainer.

PS - Tottenham have done a great job in totally different circumstances, rounds of applause all round.
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Old April 11th, 2019, 03:07 PM   #12591
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Originally Posted by Macred View Post
No it isn't but we are getting closer but as I say, I do not want to offend the mods so I will steer back on topic - no offence - I love chatting footy!

Funny when I asked you that question I started thinking about it myself, like a list, it is quite hard to do in some respects....

1) Steep stands
2) A roof that adds to a feeling of tightness and claustrophobia - imposing
3) As close as possible/permitted to the pitch
4) A single tier and definitively separate Kop end - with safe standing when permitted
5) A capacity of circa 70,000 - and I would allow, where they can sell them, 5,000 away fans because the atmosphere is better.
6) A sense of history
7) From the exterior, a sense of permanence and strength so stone or brick exterior - it would not have fit in but I wish the new Main stand had used bricks the colour you get on the Tobacco Warehouse on the docks.
8) Discreet corporate facilities but sufficient to meet the needs and financial requirements that peers achieve - i.e. not in your face when looked at internally
9) Not a bowl
10) Something that will stand the test of time and maybe age and look all the better for it (so deffo not our old Main Stand!).

And then you could get into concourses and toilets etc... Wifi if that is important... then I decided it is all too complexicated!!
Good list but rather than wifi how about mobile phone blockers? You're not there for selfies and in-play gambling.
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Old April 11th, 2019, 03:29 PM   #12592
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Yes, something like that. With Rangers though it does not go far enough back - no doubt governed by where the posts are for the roof stanchion. At Anfield they are level with the back of where the old Main finished... so level with the first tier. Looking at the plans of the ARE, the new roof post will be substantially further back then currently.... looking at this image, somewhere in the middle or the current Anfield Road.

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Old April 11th, 2019, 03:36 PM   #12593
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LIVERPOOL - Anfield Stadium (54,074 -> 60,000)

This picture shows the need for a new stand at Anfield road.

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Old April 11th, 2019, 04:32 PM   #12594
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Its a tiny likkle baby stand... I amazed it hold 9,000!

I dunno if Google Earth/Maps has been updated but I was playing with the 3d view, and was nearly tempted to post some screen shots on here... it looks really good... and the ARE does look wholly inadequate. When you consider the plans show that even the stand in the outline plan will go back to the rear of the car park, you realise what a monster it will be...
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Old April 11th, 2019, 04:39 PM   #12595
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Its a tiny likkle baby stand... I amazed it hold 9,000!

I dunno if Google Earth/Maps has been updated but I was playing with the 3d view, and was nearly tempted to post some screen shots on here... it looks really good... and the ARE does look wholly inadequate. When you consider the plans show that even the stand in the outline plan will go back to the rear of the car park, you realise what a monster it will be...
Once they get it up to around 63k I think that will be it for a while. I know there is talk of filling in the corners too. That will take it to around 67k which would be good.
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Old April 11th, 2019, 04:41 PM   #12596
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This picture shows the need for a new stand at Anfield road.

If the ARE extends back, depth-wise, a comparable distance to that of the Main Stand, what would that corner outside the grounds be utilized for? I don't imagine they would connect the two stands so that there are shared concourses, leaving the two stands independent. Just feels like wasted space, especially now that these stands are substantially bigger than in the past, making those areas more exaggerated than before. It's the one thing I enjoy from bowl-shaped stadia, is that the outer facade is cohesive.
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Old April 11th, 2019, 04:56 PM   #12597
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I don't understand the fear/loathing of bowl shaped stadiums.

Camp Nou, Bernabeu, San Siro, Allianz, Millennium, Maracana, Azteca etc etc etc are bowls. In fact most stadiums, large and small, are bowl shaped.

It's not the bowl that makes a soulless stadium. The atmosphere, or lack thereof, is down to the occupants of the stadium.

That being said the Kop is in the LFC DNA so any Liverpool stadium, new or refurbished, would have to have a single tier home end.
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Old April 11th, 2019, 05:06 PM   #12598
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Personally, I don't dislike bowl-shaped stadiums, just don't think they are necessary for all clubs. However, they do require proper designing to support that atmosphere created by its occupants. So a huge plus to spurs for seemingly listening to their supporter's desires.

Just think LFC staying at Anfield is most important, thus doing this piecemeal redevelopment is the tradeoff required for that. Keeping a unique, 4 stand ground (in the time where conceptions of a modern stadium=bowl) is only a bonus.
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Old April 11th, 2019, 05:13 PM   #12599
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If the ARE extends back, depth-wise, a comparable distance to that of the Main Stand, what would that corner outside the grounds be utilized for? I don't imagine they would connect the two stands so that there are shared concourses, leaving the two stands independent. Just feels like wasted space, especially now that these stands are substantially bigger than in the past, making those areas more exaggerated than before. It's the one thing I enjoy from bowl-shaped stadia, is that the outer facade is cohesive.


Itís been mentioned that the owners may be looking at the corners being filled in.
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Old April 11th, 2019, 05:20 PM   #12600
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Itís been mentioned that the owners may be looking at the corners being filled in.
I doubt this will happen anytime in the near future considering the Anfield roof trusses occupy the corners. We'd have to replace the whole roof structure in the entire stadium. It's the reason why the corners weren't filled in when the main stand was expanded ie. Would've meant rebuilding the roof structures of the Kopp and ARE.

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