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Old April 11th, 2018, 09:48 AM   #4301
Stuu
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That map does make me completely question the methodology by which the CR2 route has been chosen. I know the lines in to Waterloo need some sort of solution, but to me the solution would be to tumnel Waterloo-City-Whitechapel and then take over the Canary Wharf branch of CR1. And then some form of metro option for Clapham Junction-West end-NE London IF that is the most pressing need.

Amersham is just odd on that map, is it going to double in size?
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Old April 11th, 2018, 01:01 PM   #4302
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It does suggest that the peak 4tph the 4-lines modernisation was planning on bringing isn't going to happen. 2000 am peak Met boarders (plus people into Chiltern) isn't that absurd I guess, given current crowding and growth levels. The Mayor can't propose anything out there, nor has access to detailed long term growth plans (not least as there's no long term plan for Chiltern DC). I wouldn't be surprised if Amersham does double in population from 2000 to 2040 - mainly as knocking down three houses containing maybe 5 people each and building 50 senior apartments on the site has happened a few times already, as has other densification (eg a large bungalow containing 7 people and a smallish empty plot next door, being turned into 6 family houses going for silly money) - but there's a limit and the focus on accommodation for older people doesn't create commutes into London!

But it also shows the immense apathy the current administration has for the places beyond Moor Park - they didn't model Croxley link, and faced with fast Met trains and Chiltern's being blue level crowded (which is still bad when talking about places more that half an hour out - it's why CR2 will provide more capacity for Waterloo-Surbiton services), their proposed interventions increase the crowding north of Harrow, then miraculously solve it south of there - including on the Chilterns.

I've looked at the MTS for some explaination as to why demand from Amersham, etc is higher, or supply lower, with the interventions vs without. There isn't any.
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Old April 11th, 2018, 02:10 PM   #4303
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Given as you say the apathy for anything beyond the adminstrative borders, perhaps TfL intend running more trains starting from Harrow? There were enough S8s ordered to run the planned service, and the extra one for Croxley. Not good for the poor stockbrokers of the Chilterns!
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Old April 11th, 2018, 05:56 PM   #4304
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Given the recent talk of extending Crossrail from Abbey Wood to Ebbsfleet, is there value in looking into this potential extension of the Met line via Greenwich?

I accept it's a long shot, but with the signal upgrades on the Met line it could mean potentially 8tph terminating at New Cross (taking over from the existing overground branch) and 8tph terminating at Abbey Wood via Greenwich.

A potential knock-on, mentioned in the article, is that Overground trains on the West Croydon, Crystal Palace and Clapham Junction branches could be increased to 8tph.

Chuck in a Bakerloo Line extension to Hayes and southeast London is finally, properly integrated into London's transport network. You'd also free up around 12tph (including the Hayes and Greenwich branches) to be redistributed across other Southeastern/Thameslink routes.

Back to New X / Greenwich branches: In this highly hypothetical scenario, New X residents lose 4tph service to East London, but gain a service with double the frequency, that takes them direct to Liverpool Street and Kings X, with interchanges for the Overground and Jubilee Line. Greenwich line users lose a direct train to London Bridge and Cannon Street but also gain a service with higher frequency, direct to Liverpool Street and Kings X, with interchanges for the Overground and Jubilee Line (with the latter partially making up for the loss of direct services to London Bridge).
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Old April 11th, 2018, 07:13 PM   #4305
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Getting rid of Greenwich just means more trains via the bottlenecks - it's a solution looking for a problem - not least as it's the corridor that is (inside of Abbey Wood) least in need of a frequency boost.

If the Met is to go anywhere beyond Liverpool Street that isn't Aldgate, it needs to be Barking to deal with the actual issue of crowding on the corridor by doubling Aldgate East - Liverpool Street frequency (and bigger trains). That said, having half the SSL trains arrive near-empty westbound at Liverpool Street is something considered very useful by those who turn up at those platforms and want to head west.
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Old April 11th, 2018, 08:20 PM   #4306
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Also, severing the circle at Baker Street is one SSL rationalisation too far I think. There's probably some arrangement of crayons that lets you turn all the SSLs into self contained lines, but they'd all have to cross the city. Means new tunnels and interchanges and a long term plan... :-/
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Old April 11th, 2018, 09:39 PM   #4307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sesquip View Post
There's probably some arrangement of crayons that lets you turn all the SSLs into self contained lines, but they'd all have to cross the city. Means new tunnels and interchanges and a long term plan... :-/
There's a challenge!

Rebuild West Hampstead, then tunnelled met line via Euston and City to somewhere suitable in ~Deptford and then take over the Greenwich line to Abbey Wood.

Rebuild Aldgate East to have two terminating platforms between the District Line.

4 tracks Praed Street-Edgware Road for Wimbleware

Bottom left corner of the Circle gets much trickier, I expect someone more adventurous with their crayons can think of something
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Old April 11th, 2018, 10:00 PM   #4308
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Network Rail has taken over the management of Clapham Junction

I hope the planned upgrades will match the same quality as London Bridge station.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 03:09 PM   #4309
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Clapham Junction is my local station so I'm very aware of the major issues there. It's totally not fit for purpose and desperately needs a huge upgrade.

The station also presents a major commercial opportunity that I'm sure Network Rail will want to take advantage of. It's a massive site in a heavily populated area. Combined with the redevelopment of the York Road estates behind it, this could become a major new centre for South West London.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 03:34 PM   #4310
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Clapham Junction is my local station so I'm very aware of the major issues there. It's totally not fit for purpose and desperately needs a huge upgrade.

The station also presents a major commercial opportunity that I'm sure Network Rail will want to take advantage of. It's a massive site in a heavily populated area. Combined with the redevelopment of the York Road estates behind it, this could become a major new centre for South West London.

There has been the plan to build a new station further east, for proper parallel tracks.


But a big rebuild relying on commercial development would be financially very risky.

Time it wrongly in the greed-v-fear of the property market cycle and it would be a disaster.

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Old April 12th, 2018, 03:47 PM   #4311
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It will not be anything tall either.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 04:15 PM   #4312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuu View Post
There's a challenge!
Oh indeed

Here's my stab at it:



Going anticlockwise round the circle from Baker Street:

All Met services run through. H&C terminates here.

At Edgware Road, a new Eastbound tunnel portal is sunk in between the platforms. By my measurement, you can get 6m underground in the length of the station at a 1:28 gradient. This allows continued running during construction.

The portal leads to the first new tunnel. Yellow Line Stops: Marylebone, Baker St (below existing H&C platforms), Goodge St, Russell Square, Clerkenwell (new), Moorgate, then take over the Overground via Bethnal Green.

Then, you do the same in the other direction from Edgware road to bypass Praed St. Junction and connect the H&C up. One new station at Edgware Road (Bakerloo). The H&C is annoying. I don't like my pink crayon.

Now Edgware Road (SSL) no longer exists. It's just a tunnel crossover. Build over it.



At Earl's Court, the Yellow line goes to Richmond/Ealing. Green line is District and runs Wimbledon to Upminster. No circle service between the Kensingtons. So sorry.

Aldgate rebuilt as per the UKrail blog post, with the Met going on to a Southeastern route.



A grown up will be along shortly to tidy up the mess.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 05:13 PM   #4313
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The UK Rail Met line extension idea is mine. I chose the Greenwich line because it provides a way to enable Crossrail to take over the tracks beyond Abbey Wood (a good thing - 4 tracks would be overkill out there). It also greatly boosts the service to Greenwich and Deptford, which have seen large housing built without suitable service enhancements. If there is one location near to central London that has rail but feels like it should be on the tube, its the Deptford-Greenwich area. Charlton still has room to build, which could help fund the extension.

Removing the first flat junction south east of London Bridge seems like a clear win.Net effect is something like an extra 6tph from London Bridge to Lewisham, some of which might be diverted from Charing Cross to reduce conflict, yielding perhaps an extra 4tph long distance services (the services that actually make money...)

In case it wasn't clear in the article, both the Met and H&C would run south of Aldgate in the new tunnel, so we're talking up to 32tph into SE London, which is certainly a step change.
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Old April 12th, 2018, 06:26 PM   #4314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen_c View Post
The UK Rail Met line extension idea is mine. I chose the Greenwich line because it provides a way to enable Crossrail to take over the tracks beyond Abbey Wood (a good thing - 4 tracks would be overkill out there). It also greatly boosts the service to Greenwich and Deptford, which have seen large housing built without suitable service enhancements. If there is one location near to central London that has rail but feels like it should be on the tube, its the Deptford-Greenwich area. Charlton still has room to build, which could help fund the extension.

Removing the first flat junction south east of London Bridge seems like a clear win.Net effect is something like an extra 6tph from London Bridge to Lewisham, some of which might be diverted from Charing Cross to reduce conflict, yielding perhaps an extra 4tph long distance services (the services that actually make money...)

In case it wasn't clear in the article, both the Met and H&C would run south of Aldgate in the new tunnel, so we're talking up to 32tph into SE London, which is certainly a step change.

In terms of buildability, could you

- temporarily terminate all Met/H&C at Aldgate (and maybe run extra Circle Line ones through there),

- dig out a ramp in place of the northern two tracks between Aldgate and Aldgate East,

- put new Met/H&C platforms underneath the District Line platforms at Aldgate East station?

Then you could head off wherever you wished.


Some Met and H&C could permanently terminate at Aldgate, so Liverpool St. would be where you had to change to through trains. And change again at Aldgate East to the District, along the current H&C route going east.

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Old April 12th, 2018, 10:28 PM   #4315
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In terms of buildability, you just terminate half the northern SSL trains at Liverpool Street and half at Moorgate while you dig out the ramp at Aldgate station. Much more room for the civils that way.
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Old April 13th, 2018, 01:20 PM   #4316
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Quote:
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There has been the plan to build a new station further east, for proper parallel tracks.

But a big rebuild relying on commercial development would be financially very risky.

Time it wrongly in the greed-v-fear of the property market cycle and it would be a disaster.

.
I hadn't heard of the new station further east - that's interesting. I can't see that happening myself though.

I don't think I'd envisaged a station relying on commercial development; more a Network Rail station that included large amounts of NR-managed shopping space. They've recognised their stations are also shopping centres and retail has become a much bigger focus for them in recent years.

With the lack of good, modern retail space in Battersea but clear demand, it strikes me that there's a golden opportunity for Network Rail to make Clapham Junction much more than just an interchange.
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Old April 13th, 2018, 02:30 PM   #4317
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CJ shouldn't be that difficult. You demolish the existing shopping centre to the south and probably the PSC union offices on Falcon road creating a new mall with more concourse space. The car park is buried. Ideally you then rebuild the overbridge to make it bigger like Reading's. The subway is refurbished. The northern part with its retail units in arches would be ideal to make into a strip of trendy cafes, restaurants, etc.

If money was no object I've love to cover most of the station in a giant glass roof like Berlin's HBF.
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Old April 13th, 2018, 11:33 PM   #4318
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I hadn't heard of the new station further east - that's interesting. I can't see that happening myself though.
It was a long time ago now, a quick google brings up this.

From memory it involved moving the station east and building some towers, which were considered completely out of place for London... but were probably no bigger than the stuff being built at Vauxhall now
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Old April 14th, 2018, 12:40 PM   #4319
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I can't see the station site ever being moved.

If you consider the masterplan for the area immediately north of the station, it's quite dense and will bring more people to the area than are there now.

There are also many chains on St. John's Road, but the vast majority are small-scale formats or carry limited ranges. I can certainly see there being demand for higher grade retail units in the area, hinted by Boots opening their larger store between Lidl and Asda (which a rebuilding of itself wouldn't go amiss).
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Old April 14th, 2018, 04:24 PM   #4320
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Highly unlikely the station would be moved there simply isn’t room between the tracks to the east for the platforms.

Reading station is a good template for a future Clapham Junction station, with potentially some kind of non-ticketed access across.
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