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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I thought it would be interesting to gauge how people are feeling about next year. How positive do you feel, compared to 2017? What schemes people are looking forward to or want to see prioritised?

There are some big schemes likely to make significant progress in 2018, so I feel more positive than I did this time last year.

These are:

1. Liverpool Waters – Between 3-6 schemes on site on Princes Dock alone. Hive, Lexington, Plaza 1821, CLT, Isle of Man Terminal, public realm works. Possible planning application for 200 room hotel and MSCP.

2. Everton stadium – Finally……Finally? Subject to them not finding soil that they don’t like we should see a planning application this year. If not, I would be very worried.

3. Paddington Village – Between 3-6 schemes also on site. Kaplan, RCP, MSCP, energy centre, public realm, proton centre. Possible planning application for hotel.

4. Liverpool Shopping Park completion.

5. Islington/Fabric District – There’s a number of schemes on site, with several looking likely to come on stream next year. They should significantly change how this area looks and feels.

6. Kings Dock – This is as major investment (£200m?), creating 1,500 jobs in total. This should come on site too.

Others are vaguer but hopefully we’ll hear progress.

1. Pall Mall Exchange – desperately needed.
2. John Moores Copperas Hill site – planning application
3. Lewis’s – planning application
4. Festival gardens – progress news

There also the mini-revival around Greatie too, which is interesting.

Thoughts?
 

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I'm cautiously optimistic, I echo most of what you said but I'm not sure we'll hear anything on Pall Mall, Copperas Hill or Lewis's, we should be and it'll be welcome if it comes but it's too early to say yet.

If the stories are to be believed too, we should be seeing progress on Infinity and maybe some solid proposals for Ten Streets. If the stadium steps up a gear, I reckon this will move forward in tandem with it although it'll be a slow burner. I'd expect more plans for Liverpool Waters too, Central Docks in particular.

2017 seemed to be all about putting everything in place, it promised a lot but never delivered for me. Lots of that stuff should now be at delivery stage now though so let's see how it pans out.
 

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It's fair to say 2017 has not been a vintage year for our city. I think we've all felt a bit pessimistic this year, and that has regularly manifested itself on the forum.

A number of sites started, but either stalled, or become surface car parks or wasteland. Other schemes seem to endlessly cycle through the planning system making changes, but never seemingly coming close to actually getting on-site. Buildings worthy of retention were both proposed for, and actually demolished, while gap sites remain untouched. Several new proposals lacked flair at best or were wholly inappropriate at worst. More broadly, after being in the mix for a good half decade one way or another, losing the Commonwealth Games still bothers, as it would have given the city a real shot in the arm. Meanwhile the city's politics, from both sides of the aisle so to speak, continues to unimpress.

That's not to say there weren't some things to cheer. The realisation of the first phase of Liverpool Shopping Park after a good decade of inaction was welcome. The opening of the Mersey Gateway, a fantastic piece of civil engineering, also shouldn't be overlooked. However on balance 2017 wasn't great.

That said, I do feel rather more optimistic about 2018. As noted, things have quietly been coming together, and I think we're already seeing things picking up. Even just in the last few weeks, when you might expect things to slow down towards Christmas, things are actually starting to move. Cranes have appeared at The Weavers and Greenbank, while Plaza 1821 is also now out of the blocks too. More cranes are due at the International College and The Weavers first thing in the new year, while the Rutherford Centre gets going in under three weeks. I am slightly more cautious than this time last year, as we entered 2017 with a decent pipeline, and as Paul notes, it didn't really deliver. However with that same pipeline now even fuller with more proposals, and actual signs of life for various important development areas like Liverpool Waters and Paddington Village, I'm hopeful a change of year will shake us free of the doldrums, and 2018 will be something really quite good.
 

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The big question of 2018 will largely be settled in January, when we get the NPR plans from TfN. HS2 is already suppressing the city's economy but there is a chance we might see something positive from the new plans.
 

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One interesting statistic about 2018 is that not only will it be the tenth anniversary of Capital of Culture but also the tenth anniversary of Dr Tim Leunig's pronouncement that Liverpool was in terminal decline and its citizens would be better off moving to the South East.

Ten years later, following a world recession and a major cut in Liverpool's finances from central government, whilst there are plenty of reasons to be nervous about the future (and you will read them all on this forum), very few people would see the city being in terminal decline.

The economist John Kenneth Galbraith pointed out that the optimist, whose predictions turn out wrong will be vilified but that seldom happens to the doom-monger.

I think that the most visible change that we will see in the city next year will be the commencement of work on the Liverpool Waters towers and, quite likely, other tall projects such as Infinity and Ovatus. Whilst these are residential and not office towers and will represent a relatively small part of total investment in the city, the construction will raise the image of the city as a place to invest.

I'm hopeful that, by the end of next year, we will have in place some firm proposals for the Northern Powerhouse Rail project with the announcement of a Liverpool terminal and the preferred route. Whilst actual construction will still be years away and maybe not in the lifetime of some of us older forummers, the fact that Liverpool is firmly on the future high speed rail map will be a boost to investment in the city.

I won't hold my breath about any major office developments being announced but recent office take-up in the city must increase pressure for something to happen before too long.
 

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Slow burning to whoosh. (though not literally.)
Although rather too many smaller projects are underwhelming they add to the mix of redevelopment that adds to an overall feeling of regeneration be it humble. Having said that if we can have many hundreds of them reanimating dodgy corners and gaps in streetscape etc the city increasingly feels a bit better overall.

I'm quite sure Liverpool felt somewhat similar in the 18th and 19th centuries. Then the 'Visions' of could do better and they did so on the back of sustained growth in population and energy and stability.

It is more than fair to say that Liverpool and the region has both ripped itself apart and been dumped on by politics.

We now need a very clear mandate to get moving on sustainable growth and not accidental.

Investment for the 'Now and Future' and sink once and all the imposed 'Managed Decline'.

And yes, some 'Flag Ship' projects like the proposed 'Cruise Liner Terminal' (no pun intended) can make a real and lasting difference to growth and perception.

The regeneration of the 'Albert Dock and Warehouses' etc begat the possibility of 'Liverpool One' etc. A joined up 'Liverpool' waterfront' is ongoing in trial and error but at least it is happening. Slowly (far too slowly for my liking) the wounds of the never to be (thankfully in hind site) 'Inner city motorway' are being erased by ad-hoc builds that take the eye away from the many scars of imposed dereliction and wasteland.

2018 will see many more cranes on the skyline and as people turn redeveloped corners they will come across buildings that they haven't seen before. Corner shops they have never used before and doorways to homes they didn't know existed.

That is progress for community.
Progress for the LCR must be a totally unapologetic drive for growth and renewal.

The 'Visitor Economy' must be fiercely protected for the growth in hotels and restaurants and visitor attractions that must all be value for money to improve repeat visits and business growth and this must push out to the suburbs providing local pride and jobs and a substantial change in mindset.
 

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The big question of 2018 will largely be settled in January, when we get the NPR plans from TfN. HS2 is already suppressing the city's economy but there is a chance we might see something positive from the new plans.
I think we've already hear what these are. 2018 will be when we see what DfT / Treasury want to take forward proposals to link Liverpool.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I'm a little behind on this one, but what evidence is there for the more positive sentiments doing the rounds about HS2?
 

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I think we've already hear what these are. 2018 will be when we see what DfT / Treasury want to take forward proposals to link Liverpool.


Yes, there is a difference between what TfN may have on its wish-list and what the DfT and Treasury will want to support. The recent leaked info published in the Times, which wasn't especially promising from Liverpool's point view, seems to have come from Whitehall rather than TfN. Remember also that DfT will be taking advice from Adonis' National Infrastructure Commission, a body that like its chair appears to be hellbent on prioritising Manchester-Leeds in any new investment in west-east links across the north.
 

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I see 2018 as a boom year, followed by an immediate crash.....rinse & repeat.
That's capitalism Jane. Longer deeper recessions/depressions with short, short and shorter rebound periods. Lots more corporate takeover/amalgamations which in-turn limits choice and increase prices for the consumer. More unemployment in the advanced industrialised nations with more and more corporations taking manufacturing off-shore to low wage, less restrictive government oversights of health and safety in the workplace. This will, in turn, put further downward pressure on the wages of those who will be lucky enough to have a job. Zero hour contracts will further proliferate with more and more people becoming "self employed" but actually returning to the conditions their forbears laboured under in the past "casual employment" but without what is left of the safety nets of UI and welfare.

The new socialism, (Corporate Socialism,) will be rampant and will be the dominant economic system throughout the world. The 1% will take even more for themselves. Why wouldn't they?
 
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One interesting statistic about 2018 is that not only will it be the tenth anniversary of Capital of Culture but also the tenth anniversary of Dr Tim Leunig's pronouncement that Liverpool was in terminal decline and its citizens would be better off moving to the South East.

Ten years later, following a world recession and a major cut in Liverpool's finances from central government, whilst there are plenty of reasons to be nervous about the future (and you will read them all on this forum), very few people would see the city being in terminal decline.

The economist John Kenneth Galbraith pointed out that the optimist, whose predictions turn out wrong will be vilified but that seldom happens to the doom-monger.

I think that the most visible change that we will see in the city next year will be the commencement of work on the Liverpool Waters towers and, quite likely, other tall projects such as Infinity and Ovatus. Whilst these are residential and not office towers and will represent a relatively small part of total investment in the city, the construction will raise the image of the city as a place to invest.

I'm hopeful that, by the end of next year, we will have in place some firm proposals for the Northern Powerhouse Rail project with the announcement of a Liverpool terminal and the preferred route. Whilst actual construction will still be years away and maybe not in the lifetime of some of us older forummers, the fact that Liverpool is firmly on the future high speed rail map will be a boost to investment in the city.

I won't hold my breath about any major office developments being announced but recent office take-up in the city must increase pressure for something to happen before too long.

The point about Tim Leunig's comments was that there were idiotic and a fruit of the unthinking prejudices of his sort. When Leunig advocated Liverpool's destruction the city had experienced ten years of steady, very healthy economic growth at higher rates than the national average and was about to exceed the per capital economic output figure for the UK as a whole.

Since 2008, and in ten years, Liverpool's economy has not only fallen back behind other cities' and that of the UK but has shrank in absolute terms:

Take inflation into account and this represents a catastrophic reversal. Liverpool is significantly less productive than it was ten years ago. The recent weird meme that someone has invented that because 2008 was ECoC year it represented the start of Liverpool's revival rather than the inflection point when a decade or more's revival jammed into reverse looks even more bizarre after yesterday's economic output figures were released than they did two days ago.

I was outraged by Leunig's comments, because they were ignorant and spiteful. If someone such as he came up with something similar today I'm not sure I'd have an answer to it.
 

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Yes, there is a difference between what TfN may have on its wish-list and what the DfT and Treasury will want to support. The recent leaked info published in the Times, which wasn't especially promising from Liverpool's point view, seems to have come from Whitehall rather than TfN. Remember also that DfT will be taking advice from Adonis' National Infrastructure Commission, a body that like its chair appears to be hellbent on prioritising Manchester-Leeds in any new investment in west-east links across the north.
But that report also had stuff in it which was patently a load of old shite, like the idea that a high speed train line would run on an already busy 'upgraded' line.
 

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^I heard the voice of the Treasury in that. Wishful thinking at least on their part if I'm right. But they control the purse strings and so we must listen to what they have to say. They may well *like* the idea of upgraded lines being used, that being cheaper and all, so we'll see.
 

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2018 will be the same as 2017 in any substantial terms. Liverpool has so much potential, but is not able to currently realise that.

Without deep political change that seems unlikely to me to be able to change, reason being that there are some facts that need to be faced up to, some about-turns that need to be made in earnest, and the changes must be highly visible. And if personalities/positions are in the way of those changes coming, then those personalities/positions should go.

I'll leave this link here, which people might find interesting to read:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ublic-life/the-7-principles-of-public-life--2

Highlight no 1.

On the surface, in 2018:
  • You might get a couple of residential developments.
  • You might get a call centre, on prime city centre waterfront.
  • You will get a year of parties, with the same old faces telling you you've never had it so good ESPECIALLY WITH THE CUTS.

You might see various establishment types and their hangers on doing/saying lots of things to try and make out that everything's rosy, but I feel safe in believing you won't get any exploration or explanation as to why Liverpool is languishing when it should be pulling in massive improvements to education, jobs, earnings and living standards.

I you're unhappy with that, be the change you wish to see.
 

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2018 will be the same as 2017 in any substantial terms. Liverpool has so much potential, but is not able to currently realise that.

Without deep political change that seems unlikely to me to be able to change, reason being that there are some facts that need to be faced up to, some about-turns that need to be made in earnest, and the changes must be highly visible. And if personalities/positions are in the way of those changes coming, then those personalities/positions should go.

I'll leave this link here, which people might find interesting to read:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ublic-life/the-7-principles-of-public-life--2

Highlight no 1.

On the surface, in 2018:
  • You might get a couple of residential developments.
  • You might get a call centre, on prime city centre waterfront.
  • You will get a year of parties, with the same old faces telling you you've never had it so good ESPECIALLY WITH THE CUTS.

You might see various establishment types and their hangers on doing/saying lots of things to try and make out that everything's rosy, but I feel safe in believing you won't get any exploration or explanation as to why Liverpool is languishing when it should be pulling in massive improvements to education, jobs, earnings and living standards.

I you're unhappy with that, be the change you wish to see.

That's a bit pessimistic. We will probably continue to inch along in the way we did in 2017, with maybe the Knowledge Quarter making some progress and a few things starting around Princes Dock, maybe the cruise terminal and a few small shoots showing along Central Dock. But it is true to say that, without substantial change in the local and national political and administrative set-up, nothing more radical than that is likely to happen.
 
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