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21st Century Liverpool

As requested by SY a new thread now that things seem to have moved on.

If you need anything from the previous threads stuck in here just copy and paste.

As always, any problems please pm me.
 

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Hello all


right, over the last few months, the 21C effort has began to drag and after the advise of a number of people the society is now ready to be taken forward.

Myself, Michael McDonough, and also Robert Graham have taken on the role of trustees with a view to everybody else wanting to get involved to join immediately as members of the 21C.

Both of us have been working hard to push the 21C concept and feel that now is the time to grab the bull by the horns so to speak.

This step was taken, again on professional advice, as a system of voting could not at this stage be put in place as, well, there is not the necessary amount of interest or amount of people to vote, and arranging for this has proven fruitless.

This arrangement between myself and Robert Graham is a temporary one if need be and is simply to get things started. Once there is sufficient roles and a larger number of members in place then a more diplomatic approach can be taken.

The signing of the constitution, witnessed and minuted is to be actioned on saturday 23rd of June as this is best for those involved to meet.

Any objections to this step or comments please post them hear. Again, this action has been taken as there has been no movement and little activity other than online (www.21cliverpool.kk5.org) and various articles in the Liverpool echo page.

Once the constitution is signed those currently involved are looking to delegate all other roles and responsibilities to anybody else eager to take those positions on, information will be posted on the 21c site in due course.
 

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That is exactly what was needed, well done. Now ther is something to join and to help shape!

How do you join? I hope there is a membership fee!
 

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Just to update guys.

Meeting is next scheduled for the Sat 21st of July

Venue to be announced.

All those still wanting to get involved can you please PM me for more information, confirm if your attending and raise any issues for the next meeting agenda.

Minutes of first meeting are available on request, please provide your email via PM.

Constitution is now signed and the key aims of the next meeting are discuss roles and responsibilities within the society and who might best suite specific jobs.

Also next steps will obviously factor.

Thanks guys:cheers:
 

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Well done Michael!
I don't think I can be in Liverpool that weekend, but hope it goes well.
 

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regarding all the pics on here and those with collections to show off! im trying to create a new image gallery space on 21C Liverpool that hows the amazing way our city is changing and also illustrates the great skyline we already have.

Im looking to create a gallery which will feature sub galleries devoted to the photographer, fully credited to those who take the pics, anyone interested? PM if you are...

please see the 21C photo page for an example of what you will be given in terms of gallery layout

thanks
:cheers:
 

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The site is looking great, but I can't find the draft policy statement on it anymore, only a rather wooly "we want to encourage change to make the city great" statement. Has the draft policy statement been removed? It took half a dozen people several hundred hours to create, so personally I'd only ditch it entirely once there is something newer and better to put in its place (it was only a draft because it would be for the first set of real members of a real society to adopt or change it).

I just think if people are to be interested in joining they will want to know a bit more.......if I came to it fresh, I'd think "beautiful site", but I'd also be confused. Is it a website? A society? The website of a Society? A website to create a society? The idea of putting some basic policy principles (what the Society is about, its basic interests and values) is that likeminded people can say "yes, I'm interested in finding out more / joining in". Especially with a meeting coming up, I think it's important that people have a clue what it's all about, otherwise it seems unlikely that they will turn up. You could end up with an urban design / built environment focus, which is great, but people like Tony, Gareth, me and others might not have such an interest - we all said we believe there needs to be a society that projects the policy interests of the sort we helped work-up into that statement. So if 21CL ends up being about skyscrapers/urban design/architectecture (which the site strongly suggests is the case) there will then be a need for a new society to reflect the policy issues many people are concerned with. If you re-read the policy statement, it tried to balance and create a synergy between those different interests. It was always a tension - some people are more visual and into buildings, some people are less visual and more into ideas - but currently I think the site would tend to attract the former. Good luck if that is what you want to do - the society will be what its early members decide it will be, and if its a variant of this place then fine.

Just my twopennyworth, as I want to see it succeed. There are so many issues where a society could be having a voice, but without members and clear policies it can't do that. A website is a dumb thing, it's the society behind it (and its policies and values) that can project influence into the world.
 

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All fair and valid points. After speaking to Richard the constitution is tweaked and will be posted tonight if i get a chance.

This saturdays meeting does have an agenda although it will involve, hopefully some decisive action and a move forward. We can go around in circles about what we are and what we are about. Primarily we are about the promotion of liverpool and its return to its rightful status as a world city. Its as simple as that. The task now is chizzling the society into something that, yes, has this overall idea but is easier to access for those simply wanting to get involved as understandably, that statement can mean anything.

:nuts: :cheers:
 

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All fair and valid points. After speaking to Richard the constitution is tweaked and will be posted tonight if i get a chance.

This saturdays meeting does have an agenda although it will involve, hopefully some decisive action and a move forward. We can go around in circles about what we are and what we are about. Primarily we are about the promotion of liverpool and its return to its rightful status as a world city. Its as simple as that. The task now is chizzling the society into something that, yes, has this overall idea but is easier to access for those simply wanting to get involved as understandably, that statement can mean anything.

:nuts: :cheers:
If only it was as simple as that though. "Promotion of Liverpool and its return to its rightful status as a world city". When the issue of "promotion" was discussed as a society aim, and it was discussed a lot, no-one really felt it was the job of a small amatuer society. In the end, after a lot of chat on the topic, people seemed to think that greater impact would be had by trying to influence the way others promote (or don't) the city.

Honestly, I know you don't for a moment accept this, but the policy document you have scrapped was based on a lot of peoples input into issues like that. Read the section on a well represented city, if you still have a copy, which distilled where people got to on that.

Effectively you are starting from scratch. That might be fine, if you can mobilise a good group of people, but as we discussed briefly (did your PM break?) you run a bit of a risk of not ending up where you want to end up.

Already you have decided the society is primarily about promotion, but you know very well that some potential members won't be interested in that. Indeed, no-one who participated in the development stage seemed to believe that should be the overall aim.

I'm not being negative, I'm being constructive here, although I know you don't see it that way, which is a bit of a problem really. The more you say "it's new, it's simple" the more I think you are risking failure.

In my opinion you should try to build on what has been done. All that was really required (but no-one could be arsed) was setting a simple agenda and forming the Society in one meeting. It was simple. The constitution was all done by buggedboy, and half a dozen people had slaved to finally sort out a set of aims and objectives that we knew somewhere between 10 and 20 people would initially sign up to. You are to be praised for belatedly sorting the meeting out, but I am worried that you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
 

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I always listen to everyone's ideas and criticism, and obviously take it on board as im more than aware nothing of this nature can operate purely on my ideas opinions and point of view.

The constitution we are now using is the one penned by Richard, after discussion with him on a few occasions as to how best take this forward.

What bothers me about this whole thing is the lack of participation and I wont accept for a moment that this is because i have supposedly tweaked the constitution to the point of ruining the original purpose.

Yes, there is always going to be things to improve, to change, to adapt, its happening all the time as more people become involved.

Ive on countless occasions asked for ideas and involvement from those who were originally interested long before the it got to this point and the website is purely keeping this alive as, lets face it, without a strong web presence we would be dead in the water in this day and age.

We are about influencing ofcourse and a place for those with ideas and a point of view to vent and platform their visions for the city. However, if people do not get involved with a certain angle or particular area they want to go into, how am i to take that forward.

The fact of the matter is far too much talk went on, and continues to go on no doubt away from this forum and it is probably why no one is getting involved.

Myself and a growing number of people are pushing this forward as much as possible, from PR to Design and we are wanting it to work. Im not going to ignore there efforts for more and more talk, discussion that one person wants and the other doesnt, it slows things down, ironically like the problem that liverpool suffers from at the moment.

I fully respect your point of view poli, same goes for Tony S who i met recently, and Richards and anyone else wanting to actually get involved. However we wont pander to anyone on the fringes who just happens to not like something. If you want a say, become a member and get involved.

We are never to influence by standing around talking, thats why 21C is here, to make waves, to get involved, to shout about things, to support the new and ambitious, not sit, wait and discuss.

Again I respect your point of view Liverpolitan, and anyone elses, this is not about having a go, but god knows the amount of time, effort and in some cases cash ive put into making this work, so rather than have a go, can those still interested actually participate so we can get this moving.
 

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It's not about the constitution, which is fairly standard, it's about the policy aims and objectives of the Society - ie what it is for, what it stands for, what it believes in and what it wants to do. You don't want to be too prescriptive in those areas, but at the same time you have to say something if people are to know what they are forming. It is the draft policy statement that was to be adopted - as well as the constitution - that is now missing. A lot of people put a lot of work into that, not just me, and it is disrespectful and wasteful to say "well hey, that was then, let's make it all up again". How can you expect people who contributed so much time and effort to those discussions around aims and objectives to start all over again in a meeting? You don't think they might think that is a bit wasteful?

As for pandering to people on the fringes, if I didnt know you better I'd think your language was Stalinist. The policy statement you have binned was crafted to include views from everyone, and respect such views. It went through about twenty drafts to make sure there was something for everyone, and that it hung together well as a coherent whole. It wasn't my views, a lot in it was stuff I'd not got a huge interest in, but I was just pulling it together with help from others.

You seem content to throw it away, and almost accuse those who seem not to agree as being "on the fringe". The policy statement was the end of a long conversation - it was designed precisely to stop people endlessly re-inventing the aims of the Society - and yet that is precisely what you are now doing. Tony knows I think he's been guilty of that also - agreeing to one formulation, and then wanting another, and another. He is a conversational sort of person, with a very fast and mercurial sort of mind, so I wouldn't expect him to stick resolutely to one set of aims and still like them days or weeks or months later. Do you think it'll be a simple discussion in the next and subsequent meetings about what the society is for, what it's about, its aims, its objectives, its values? You are starting from scratch.

As I say, you are to be commended on your effort, but the risks of this thing being still-born are very high if you squander all the goodwill and work that has gone into this to date. You've set up a website, and it's lovely, but it's also irrelevant. A Society is not a website, a society is a group of people with shared aims. The website says nothing - it's all style and no substance. A Society can develop a website, to reflect itself and its view, but the way you have things is the tail wagging the dog. "Here is a wizzy website, come and join" you seem to be saying. That doesn't work, it's been tried elsewhere and is more or less guaranteed to fail. A whole group of people sorted out what the society could be about. Buggedboy sorted out a constitution. It just needed a meeting, and it's taken six months for that to happen. It wasn't too much chat that was the problem, it was people not being willing to organise and attend a simple meeting. You've taken on that simple role, but unfortunately decided to censor the earlier thinking and discussion about aims and objectives.

You have now taken it upon yourself to say its about promoting a world class city through the medium of a website. That is not what quite a few of those who were building the Society wanted. You can no doubt find new people who will be interested in your new aim, but as I say that will bear no relation to the original vision and will not achieve the aims that we all felt were so important. A design-led "promotional" thing will not change a damn thing, it will be a waste of time. The only point of 21CL was to have some real influence to change things, and that is why intelligent, thoughtful and appropriate aims were vital - a society that seeks to promote the city is frankly pointless. You might have fun with the website personally, but it's not a society and it's not going to change things.

And that is all a bit of a pity. You were advised, and did the messenger equivalent of slamming the phone down when the advice wasn't what you wanted to hear, which is a worry because when you have the responsibility of organising a collective thing you should listen clearly to advice and always be prepared to accept that it might be right - stress on the "might".

I still think there should be a 21CL, but I don't think what you are doing is quite that. I think you are developing a fan club for a website. I'm a fan of it, so can join as a fan, but it's not the Society the city needs and that collectively we had the wit and resources to make a go of.
 

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With respect, i have not said at any point that we are not using the constitution, i have not "Shredded" anything, and im really not up for discussing anything on here regarding 21C anymore. The constitution quite frankly has not been touched by me, or anyone else. It will be on the website.

What i have created online is an attempt to respond to some of the points and aims on the constitution, anyone who doesnt see that is blind to what im trying to do. Those who are involved up to now, also, have read the constitution that caused so much effort to write and they too, are interpreting it in their own way and responding to it.

its looking more like there are people who are uncomfortable with the work im doing and thats fine, but all I ever seem to get is dont do that, but not "do this" and in all honesty, if my irrelevant and pointless website hadnt been created the idea would have just collapsed.

This is not a stalinist effort, ive been trying to stear 21C as best i can for a while, arranging meeting, promotion, creating awareness, design work....its not just about the site and nothing about the precious constitution that is being waved about right now has been changed. Speak to Bugged Boy if you want clarification on that.

If those of SSC no longer want any involvement then thats there decision, but what i really object to is the suggestion that my efforts are pushing away those who started this, but blatently were not seeing it through of late despite my efforts to encourage this.

The society will carry on developing, the constitution as it stands will be adhered to unless members call for changes.

Its very easy for those not involved and not contributing to snipe at every effort being made. And im sure the majority of those who are watching the progress of 21C look at its development positively.

Please, stop carrying on like i have taken this, thrown away what has been done before....i have simply created online space for 21C, whilst we build the society in and around the constitution as a foundation.

And poli, i didnt slam the phone down on you, i just had that many voices pecking at my head with different points of view i had to take a break from it and get impartial advice, i wasnt throwing a fit because i heard something i didnt like. Im in a profession under constant criticism, i can take a little more than some hard but constructive advice before i choose to ignore you or anyone else.
 

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I'm not talking about the constitution - you are. Why do you keep going on about it?

I am talking about an entirely separate document, that you put on your website, that I can no longer find. It is the Draft Policy Statement.

That does not have the weight of the Constitution, it is merely a statement that the Society was to adopt as its starting point, and started to expand upon aims in the constitution.

The policy statement captured all the previous discussions and work, quite succinctly, and was bloody hard work - as people, some more than others, were constantly changing their minds or wanting changes etc etc. It was a major achievmement to produce something that made sense and that all involved were happy with.
 

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yes, i had both of those, both of which were very long winded and I wanted to create something that, whilst holding the essence of what you guys had successfully achieved, was a little bit easier to digest. That too will have its space. The constitution i have been refering throughout. The Policy statement also, hasnt not been touched or changed.
 
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