Skyscraper City Forum banner
1 - 20 of 88 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
449 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Aintree has hosted the F1 British Grand Prix five times: 1955, 1957, 1959, 1961 and 1962. 11 non-championship Formula 1 races, known as the Aintree 200, with the last run in 1964. Stirling Moss won his first British F1 at Aintree and was also the first British driver to win a British F1 in a British car a few years later. 150,000 attended one race there.

F1 racing was stopped there because the course was changing owners and the future not certain. The track is largely still there and still used.

The top-class spectator facilities now far outstrip any British motor course. Liverpool is far superior than Donnington or Silverstone for transport access and hotels being a World Heritage Site tourist city in most of the city centre. Cruise liners regularly visit the city during the summer months. Liners could acts as hotels for F1 races if need be. Cars will not be allowed near Donnington and access is only via the local small rail station. Car parking is no problem at Aintree.

Aintree hosts the world biggest horse race each year catering for massive crowds – they know how to handle it. The course has its own rapid-transit Merseyrail tube station with direct connection to mainline Lime St station which is two hours from London by Virgin trains. There are two motorways adjacent to the course and two into the city. An international airport is near with frequent flights to all major European cities, and also a smaller airport near for the event & owners helicopters.

This is a clear lost opportunity for Liverpool, Britain and F1. The city has image world-wide, especially sporting linked. The city hosts huge football games (semi-final of a world cup was staged in the city) and international golf events at Hoylake and Birkdale (many Golf open tournaments of all descriptions). Two large stadia are to be built in the city. Large sporting events is something common to the city. Upgrading the track and install pits is something that would take little or time money to get to full F1 standards and British F1 history rekindled.

Why isn’t the city of Liverpool council, Sefton Council, the Jockey Club and Ecclestones talking. The course could be ready in months.

Aintree is the ideal venue for the European F1 if an annual event. Germany got it every year.





Start of the 1961 British Grand Prix at Aintree won by Count Wolfgang von Trips - Ferrari 156. The 3rd Ferrari, white helmet far right.



Fangio and Stirling Moss discuss tactics before the start of the 1955 Grand Prix. Manager Alfred Neubauer organising the Mercedes mechanics.
 

·
Fugly
Joined
·
11,326 Posts
Except unfortunately that the new stands posted were built over the first corner of the track, and a retail park sits on the area that teams/media etc would base themselves. If it was feasable, I'd be all for it. :)
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
449 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Except unfortunately that the new stands posted were built over the first corner of the track, and a retail park sits on the area that teams/media etc would base themselves. If it was feasable, I'd be all for it. :)
The course held F1 for 10 years. There is no reason why the course cannot have F1 again. The course has it all, far superior to the others. Just the pits need installing and parts of the track needs updating and realigning. The track was just short of 3 miles. Many are just over 2.5 miles and the Brazilian track 2.6 miles. There is lots of scope to realign the track if need be and make it shorter.

The Jockey Club, Sefton Council & Liverpool Council should be talking about it. Would the motor racing take in more money than some golf which is played in the centre of the race course? Kirby Golf course near runs onto the course, so no shortage of golf around there. Liverpool has more golf courses than any other city, and that is not taking into account all of Merseyside. Simple management projections are needed. Then approach Bernie Ecc', or better get him involved at the beginning.

Bernie Ecc' wants top class spectator facilities and ease of access, which Aintree excels at. That is why he gave Silverstone the boot.

Donnington is having to spend on updating and redoing its track and is behind schedule the last time I read about it. They owe the owners of the land millions in rent. And that still leaves a course that is still under-par in many aspects.

BTW, only 4 tracks have ever held a British F1 Grand Prix race: Brooklands, Brands Hatch, Silverstone and Aintree. Next year will be the first for Donnington.

I reiterate, the spectator facilities at Aintree far exceed the others. They would need to spend colossal amounts to get to where Aintree is. Aintree could have at least the European F1 Grand Prix guaranteed for 10 years or more to offset the cost of updating the track and installing pits.

It is a course that should not be ignored and encouraged to stage F1 again.

Plus Points:
  • Previous F1 heritage
  • Has far superior fan facilities than any other motor track.
  • Temporary further facilities is not a problem as this is done each Grand National
  • Transport in general is easy and fast to get into and out
  • Car parking not a problem - No cars allowed at Donnington.
  • The course organises large horse races every year
  • Hotels not a problem
  • City has international image
  • City has a sporting image with large football games, and two large stadia planned. A world cup semi-final was staged in the city. Top International Golf is held at two courses nearby: Hoylake & Royal Birkdale
  • City has an international airport with frequent flights to major Euro cities
  • City has an another international airport not far away at Manchester also with frequent flights to major Euro cities.
  • City is two hours away by train from London
  • Manchester line is being electrified to improve rail access
  • Course has its own rapid-transit rail station with connection to mainline station
  • Two motorways are adjacent to the course.
  • Two other motorways enter the city.
  • Small airport at nearby Woodvale for the teams helicopters.
  • Easy and quick to get to F1 standards - Donnington's track may not be ready in time.
  • Security not a problem as course familiar with this aspect
  • Further hotel accommodate can be via cruise liners at the Pier Head if need be.
  • Top TV facilities already in place
  • Top Reporting facilities already in place.
  • The track was well liked by drivers.
  • etc, etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
This would never happen as it would just be too big a job to do. The only real plus is the transport links and perhaps the facilities already there, but this would need huge amounts of money to get it up to F1 standards. Also a couple more points.

Firstly, http://theracingline.net/racingcircuits/racingcircuits/UnitedKingdom/index.html is a link showing the 'track' that was used for the Grand Prix. This is now way suitable for F1, remember Donnington already hosted major events including the Moto GP and has had to spend millions to upgrade it to F1 standards. Secondly the track has to meet stringent 5* safety grade from the FIA which include state of the art barriers etc which can't just be thrown at the track. Another point to consider is the cost, as Valencia already has the rights to the European Grand Prix and Bernie hates countries having more that one, with Valencia paying 26m EUROS just to host the race, I can't see this being a viable thing. Bernie would only lower the price if a London GP was on offer as they need all the money they can get to pay off the $2bn loans CVC took out to but F1 itself. Nice idea but just would never never happen!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
449 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
This would never happen as it would just be too big a job to do. The only real plus is the transport links and perhaps the facilities already there, but this would need huge amounts of money to get it up to F1 standards.
To get Silverstone & Donnington to Aintree standards would cost far, far, far more than Aintree getting to their track standards and installing pits and maybe a helipad, which I think Aintree already has anyhow. The course will not take much in cost to get it up and running. When Aintree did have the GP for 10 years, many southerners complained because it was too far from London/south east - 200 miles from London served by express trains. This was odd when every week the teams have to travel the world to race. Maybe southerners think F1 is only a southern England sport.

There is also the hotel accommodation available at Aintree: Liverpool, now a tourist hot spot, so no shortage of hotel accommodation and even more hotels being built. Then adjacent Southport and even Chester at a push - all on Merseyrail rapid-transit rail network - the course has a station and a few more not that far away.

The Grand National goes out to countless countries on TV so the press and TV facilities are second to none. They run the world's biggest horse race each year and a two week race meeting. They know how to do it. Over the past 150 years the transport infrastructure has emerged around the course because of the massive crowds. No only that most of the Aintree crowd is not local, most is from far and wide. So they are used to coping with a mass influx of people and catering.

Aintree has superior spectator facilities and other facilities the others just don't have unless they actually move the courses.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
If you look at Donnington they have had to put huge amounts of money in the track, not just the facilities. Looking at an aerial picture of Aintree, the F1 track would have to rip trough the existing Horse Racing track as I don't think it would be that good to have both. The space is very limited also plus the facilities are focussed on one corner, grandstands areas would have to be built all round the circuit to ensure enough viewing as places like Dubai have been heavily criticised for have limited grand stand locations.

I do think however that a multi purpose sports area would be great but F1 is just too unique. Also a huge stumbling block would be the noise, being surrounded by houses would be a major problem, places like Monza have already spent millions on sound shields to little or no effect as the residents surrounding the track complain, and that is Monza, THE most historic track in F1. Silverstone honestly have fantastic facilities, they are just old!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
449 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
If you look at Donnington they have had to put huge amounts of money in the track, not just the facilities. Looking at an aerial picture of Aintree, the F1 track would have to rip trough the existing Horse Racing track as I don't think it would be that good to have both. The space is very limited also plus the facilities are focussed on one corner, grandstands areas would have to be built all round the circuit to ensure enough viewing as places like Dubai have been heavily criticised for have limited grand stand locations.
On Grand Nat' day temporary facilities are all over. The railway embankment is just full of corporate double decked tents. Not a problem. If horse racing and F1 is permanent then permanent facilities could be built. Aintree is far superior to any F1 track inn the UK.

The track would not need to rip through the horse track, as it can be realigned. That would never be allowed. The horse race is unique, not another F1 race.

I do think however that a multi purpose sports area would be great but F1 is just too unique.
F1 is not unique as Aintree held it for 10 years.

Also a huge stumbling block would be the noise, being surrounded by houses would be a major problem, places like Monza have already spent millions on sound shields to little or no effect as the residents surrounding the track complain, and that is Monza, THE most historic track in F1. Silverstone honestly have fantastic facilities, they are just old!
Silverstone SUCKS!!!! I have been there many times. That is why Bernie Ecc wanted them out.

BTW, this year some F1 cars have electric motor assist. 100% electric F1 cars will be here and then noise is not an issue. And pretty soon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,593 Posts
BTW, this year some F1 cars have electric motor assist. 100% electric F1 cars will be here and then noise is not an issue. And pretty soon.
The cars that have 'KERS' are proving to be an underwhelming failure and IIRC most of the teams will be ditching it because the extra power / extra weight trade off doesn't make it worthwhile.

If F1 brings in all electric cars then I can't see me sustaining any interest in it. One of the few things that remains impressive about the sport is the noise they make and electric motors can never replicate that...

I would be surprised if the F1 teams would agree with the change to electric too as they have invested heavily in research, technology and personnel to race with internal combustion engines not electric.

ELECTRIC MOTORS OUT!
 

·
DAMNED
Joined
·
1,922 Posts
This is like saying the F.A. Cup should be on Hackney Marshes.

Substandard track and pits.
No safety, and the track will not be able to use the facilities for the horseracing, the Aintree horse racing course is inviolatable.

F1 has evolved a bit in the last 45 years.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
449 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
This is like saying the F.A. Cup should be on Hackney Marshes.

Substandard track and pits.
No safety, and the track will not be able to use the facilities for the horseracing, the Aintree horse racing course is inviolatable.

F1 has evolved a bit in the last 45 years.
I assume you are a southerner to come up with such a ridiculous statement. I would not call Aintree an open pitch. Well the FA Cup was staged there for 10 years. Even Michael Jackson had an amazingly large crowd there. F1 has moved on and Aintree can accommodate it. F1 courses have moved in facilities, but none in the UK have, while an ex F1 track has moved on brilliantly.

Pay attention to the thread. Aintree can have an F1 track as safe as any other, that is easy to do.

The prime points are that all current UK F1 tracks are substandard in facilities, transport access, parking and accommodation. Aintree leaves them standing in the prime points. Reinstating a track is no big thing, in fact it is a rather trivial thing in the whole scheme of matters.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
449 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The cars that have 'KERS' are proving to be an underwhelming failure
One won a GP a weeks ago, although it may have been a heavy mechanical type.

I would be surprised if the F1 teams would agree with the change to electric too as they have invested heavily in research, technology and personnel to race with internal combustion engines not electric.
The internal combustion engine is on its way out. 75% of the energy in the tank is wasted, the engine is so bad. Electric is the future because of battery advances and nanogate & ultra capacitors. These capacitors are now the same as ni-cad batteries in energy density. Capacitors excel in power density which chemical battery are poor. The torque and power/weight ratio of electric motors leaves the internal combustion engine for dead. Look at an electric train to a diesel train. An F1 car can have an electric motor, or one in each wheel hub, and have the battery pack changed in seconds at the pits. Kinetic energy brake regen is much superior using capacitors which no F1 team is using. Batteries only absorb 40% of the energy a capacitor can.

Nissan have just announced a new all electric 4 door car, the Chevy Volt (Vaux Ampera) is out next year and is powered by electric motors.

Meaningful R&D in internal combustion engines is pretty much dead - if there ever was any apart from tweaking them. R&D is in tuning them to mate in a hybrid as range extenders. The Chevy Volt can run with the engine at a constant speed for max efficiency and the genny power the wheels

Ferdinand Porche first raced using an engine turn a genny powering electric motors, that turned the wheels. He won the races. Electric propulsion is not new.

Expect electric F1 racing in the future and no loud horrible noises.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
449 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
As long as there's still oil in the ground F1 will be using internal combustion.
They will be the last people left doing it. You may find the electric car will take hold quite quickly once ultracapacitors and batteries are made en-mass and engineered into cars.

Racing was promoted to advance vehicle design and durability - push them to the limits. Why long rallies were organised. Brooklands was built, as UK cars were behind German and French.

The brake regen was introduced to get F1 more into eco matters and more into advanced designs. There was nothing advanced about an F1 cars propulsion system. They need to do a little more work. If they are to stay to the original idea of racing, then have to go electric to promote advances.

Brainwashed petrolheads should not be allowed to keep it back. An electric car will p1ss all over an internal combustion engine.

They can always radio the noises, so those with headsets can heard the burr, burr if they want.
 

·
DAMNED
Joined
·
1,922 Posts
Re-instating a track is no biggie? Motorway costs £23 million per mile, to build a four mile of track (silverstone 3.2m) with F1 racetrack quility surface would cost considerably more than £100m. Not including runnoff areas, drainage, stewarding facilities, fencing, barrages, security, timing systems, tv control and viewing stands. Facilities are great at Aintree (southerner I may be, but I'm also a bookmaker, and have been to Aintree many times) but they don't include a pit lane so that would need to be built too, and it's pit facilities that are important, not corperate boxes, access roads or parking. Rockingham Motor Speedway cost 70 million 8 years ago and thats only 1.47 miles long and in the middle of a quarry.
Then there is the kicker, The modern track would no be able to touch the historic horse racecourse and with the re-developed stands, would not be able to go anywhere near them, so your vaunted facilities are useless (they are not going to tarmac over the grand national finish straight). So new granstands would be needed too. Then there's the fact that NIMBY's in the area would never allow planning permission for a noisy raceway in the city. Theres been no motorsport here for 27 years and no gp for nearly 50. Not practical. Slight upgrades to Silverstone, Donington Park, or Brands Hatch would be better and cheaper.

Please point out where you can build a 3+ mile track and pit facilites without touching the 170 year old horse track that features the worlds most famous race. Without going near any houses too, because thats seroius noise pollution.

 

·
Banned
Joined
·
449 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Re-instating a track is no biggie? Motorway costs £23 million per mile, to build a four mile of track (silverstone 3.2m) with F1 racetrack quility surface would cost considerably more than £100m.
Hi, £100 million? You made all that up. A motorway is very wide, 8 lanes and even wider, and needs to cope with lines of heavy trucks 24/7.

Please point out where you can build a 3+ mile track and pit facilites without touching the 170 year old horse track that features the worlds most famous race.
The original track was 3 miles long. The course HAS had F1 for 10 years. Read back on the thread. A re-aligned track can be 2.5-2.6 miles in length. The cost of re-instating the track and pits is no great thing.

I am just repeating myself to the same groundless criticisms from southerners or the ill-informed. Read back on the thread. It is cheaper upgrade Aintree than upgrade the others to top standards in all aspects.

It is because you are a southerner. Why should everything be in the south? Wembley, Wimbledon, F1, Twickenham, etc, etc. The rest of us get pissed off at everything being there. The only thing they don't have a monopoly on is golf and Wentworth is south.

The photo of Aintree:
The track to the right is the old F1 track. It was short circuited to make a shorter track, which is still used, then a new shorter horse race track on the left was installed. The National track is the full outside of the course and Beechers Brook at bottom left. The corners on the motor track had the same names as the National track, Beechers Canal Turn, etc, and still do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Toby,

I don't know what is worse, biased southerners or deluded northerners. Have you ever witnessed or seen F1 at all in the past 30 years? Modern F1 will NEVER EVER EVER, get that, EVER use electric cars, F1 has and always will be a sport that uses internal combustion engines. It may change to biofuel but the whole point of the manufacturers being in F1 is that they translate a lot of the resources and knowledge into their road car divisions. For an F1 car to use a battery at the current race length and power usage they might as well add a tow bar and get it to pull a trailer behind it. Also one of the great attractions of F1 is the sound of the engines, I remember the controversy banning V12s for V10's so trust me, electric is a no go.

Also, Spa in Belgium has one of the worst records for traffic getting to and from the circuit, I would know, I sat in traffic for 4 hours but you know, as long as I got to see the race, I would have sat there for a day! Also who is going to pay for this? A fee of around £20m per year would be needed and I can't see the council or Aintree being able to stump up the cash let alone for the refurb.

Also £100m sounds cheap to me for something that has nowhere near the FIA standard of racetracks. F1 cars put more pressure on a track than you think, the track has to be super smooth or it will be replaced like at the Nurburgring this year. It would also have to be a Grade 1 for F1 cars to race. Another point is if you you at new track included in the F1 calendar, most if not all have been designed by Herman Tilke. For a modern F1 track you need a length of 4 to 5 km, usually with a long straight which can be anything up to 2 km long, followed by a tight hairpin, where on earth are you going to fit this in without touching the track. Lets face it Toby, you don't know what you are going on about in Terms of Modern F1. Time to let this thread go it think.

Regards
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
449 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Toby,

I don't know what is worse, biased southerners or deluded northerners. Have you ever witnessed or seen F1 at all in the past 30 years? Modern F1 will NEVER EVER EVER, get that, EVER use electric cars, F1 has and always will be a sport that uses internal combustion engines.
Hi, that is nonsense, absolute nonsense to put it mildly. there are electric car races in the USA right now. Right now there are hybrid F1 cars using electric motors for acceleration bursts.

Electric car vs Ferrari

Electric car racing

Electric car race:


Stop making things up. It will NOT cost £100m to get Aintree up to F1 standards as even most of the track is still there. No other British F1 track comes near to what Aintree has, I keep saying this time and time again, but it never sinks into the minds of prejudiced southerners - who thought Donnington was going to the North Pole as it is just out of the south east in the south Midlands. Note anything is always within easy reach of the south east. Aintree is the cheapest and best way of the UK getting top class F1 course in every aspect.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,206 Posts
Ok Toby be honest now though.

Is there any actual serious proposal to do this or just pie-in-the-sky thinking on your part?

You seem to be the only person in the whole entire world who actually thinks this idea is possible.
 
1 - 20 of 88 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top