Anyone pissed about the Baptist Church's influence on Jacksonville politics?

A lethal combination of FBC and the good ole boy network has hampered the growth of the city over the years. However, things are definately on the upward trend. There's too much to discuss, much of it deals with urban politics, which isn't the purpose of SSC, but if your interested visit metrojacksonville.com or the urban jacksonville forum at metjax.com, for more in depth info. I attempt to keep everyone here in the loop with the larger urban development projects, but the other site jumps into everything. The upcoming election will be a big one, but rest assured, the days of FBC and the good ole boys controling downtown are quickly coming to an end.

And it's about time. They've been puppet masters for far too long and though that suits some of the older more long standing residency, it's harming the possibilites for the youth and immigrated residents.

Taking up 9 city blocks tax free (granted their parking service is taxed) and influencing development and politucs as they do is just incredibly frustrating.

Once their strings have finally been severed, watch the city shift.

I can understand your frustration a little, but you can't always level criticism without considering the big picture. Without knowing the details, FBC may be part of the cultural infrastructure that promoted development in Jax to where it is today, and judging from the way Jax looks now it can't be all bad. Without that influence, it may not have developed nearly as well. Historically, any city has a number of players and organizations involved in its development, each one wielding influence through different periods and seeing its influence build and then decline. Its difficult to blame them for given municipal deficiencies without also looking at the positive they have brought. Maybe history will show that now is the time when FBC's influence begins to wane, but let it show a balance of the advantages it brought to the community as well as the disadvantages.

I'm not Baptist, just thought I'd share my nickel's worth...

Look I have no problem with religion and the connotation of sin behind drunkenness and illegal substances and activities near churches, so I have to agree TO A POINT, but it is definitely not a positive to have nine city blocks occupied by a big (I believe 3rd biggest in U.S.) southern baptist church.

Tallaman said:

I can understand your frustration a little, but you can't always level criticism without considering the big picture. Without knowing the details, FBC may be part of the cultural infrastructure that promoted development in Jax to where it is today, and judging from the way Jax looks now it can't be all bad. Without that influence, it may not have developed nearly as well. Historically, any city has a number of players and organizations involved in its development, each one wielding influence through different periods and seeing its influence build and then decline. Its difficult to blame them for given municipal deficiencies without also looking at the positive they have brought. Maybe history will show that now is the time when FBC's influence begins to wane, but let it show a balance of the advantages it brought to the community as well as the disadvantages.

I'm not Baptist, just thought I'd share my nickel's worth...

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i see what you're saying but there comes a point where the citizens just cant allow such stagnant growth out of a city with such potential.. lets put it this way, from the time my parents moved out of jacksonville, not only has tampa surpassed it in terms of population but Orlando has as well.. and believe me, orlando was barely anything in the 1970's and its already leapfrogged jax, which is one of florida's older established cities? i love jax, the people, and the beach culture.. but people need to do something about getting things going over there..

FBC has nothing to do with Orlando's growth. Disney does! In reality, Jax was never significantly larger than Miami or Tampa at any point during the last 100 years. I'm sure both actually past Jax in population before 1940 or 1950. Las Vegas, Charlotte and Phoenix have past it as well, but the focus should be on the city's quality of life, not keeping up with the sprawling Jones of the world. With that being said, growth is definately not stagnant in Jax. Downtown is redeveloping at a similar pace as any other city, outside of Miami in Florida. Just give it a little time.

Lakelander said:

Downtown is redeveloping at a similar pace as any other city, outside of Miami in Florida. Just give it a little time.

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thats the point-- its had more than enough time.. in fact, its had a head start over cities like tampa and orlando and it STILL got leapfrogged. ok, i'll understand that orlando has disney which pumps billions of dollars into its economy, but did tampa have that much more to offer from an economical standpoint than jax half a century ago?

my whole thing is that tourist attractions and entertainment have been THE REASON that cities like miami, tampa, and orlando have developed over the years and jax's hindrance of promoting tourism and entertainment may be the reason why its gotten surpassed (although it is developing at a snails pace).. think about it, when out-of-towners think of vacationing/moving to florida, jacksonville isnt the 1st place that they think of. now, if jacksonville as a whole is embracing the local government's desire to maintain its "hometown feel" by discouraging tourism and entertainment, that's another story-- gauging by what i've heard from a great majority of jax natives, it seems as if the FBC is speaking on their behalf-- and THAT is not so cool

My main point is that you seem to be penalizing the city for the past acts of FBC. What I'm saying is....right now, in present times, the city is developing a similar pace to the others. FBC has had no effect on the bars/clubs that have opened up in downtown over the past couple of years and the ones that continue to go up, to this very day. Unless, I'm missing something, feel free to explain what FBC has done in recent months/years to block the development of nightlife/entertainment/dining in downtown.

As far the economy, its impressive/unique because its the only business and industry dominated major metro in the state. I really don't see what the problem is with the city not trying to sell its soul for tourist. For example, although its half the size of the larger metros, it dominates both Tampa and Orlando in the number of locally based Fortune 1000s and is right on the heels of South Florida, although its outnumbered the metro by a population of 5 to 1. The average per capita income is also higher than the others, solidifying it as a prime business center. Other than South Beach, I'm not aware of tourism helping to create a vibrant urban district in any of those cities. Furthermore, all growth is not good growth. Using Portland, as an example, there's nothing wrong with well planned moderate growth.

Lakelander said:

My main point is that you seem to be penalizing the city for the past acts of FBC. What I'm saying is....right now, in present times, the city is developing a similar pace to the others. FBC has had no effect on the bars/clubs that have opened up in downtown over the past couple of years and the ones that continue to go up, to this very day. Unless, I'm missing something, feel free to explain what FBC has done in recent months/years to block the development of nightlife/entertainment/dining in downtown.

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well i was hoping jacksonvillians (or whatever they call themselves) would explain that. its not secret that the FBC runs that town, and denying that is just being ignorant.

Lakelander said:

Other than South Beach, I'm not aware of tourism helping to create a vibrant urban district in any of those cities. Furthermore, all growth is not good growth. Using Portland, as an example, there's nothing wrong with well planned moderate growth.

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all growth may not be good growth but Growth (in general) is GOOD... and i wouldnt call promoting your cities amenities as "selling your soul".. every legitimate non-blue-collar city does it.. if you got it, why not try to sell it? for christ's sake, jacksonville isnt freaking fargo, north dakota for crying out loud.. its a legitimate sized city that has nice beaches and a nice river that runs through it for excellent fishing and surfing. PROMOTE YOURSELVES.

its obvious that the "good ole boy" mentality has matriculated into its citizens. as evidenced on this board, it seems as if jax people have adopted the fear that new business/new industry/new tourism would tarnish all that is "traditional" and "sacred" in maintaining the "small town feel" of no change and familiarity forever.

cee: With all due respect, you are just wrong with your statements. First, the FBC could not control the city (even if they wanted to) based on sheer numbers. The population of Duval County (basically Jacksonville) is 826,426 based on 2004 census estimates.
Source: http://www.census.gov/popest/counties/CO-EST2005-08.html
The First Baptist Church in downtown Jacksonville has 28,404 members currently.
Source: http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/4255.article
FBC has just become a bugaboo for people in Jacksonville who dislike Christians and conservatives and therefore dislike Jacksonville (irrationally, I might add).

Secondly, the City is experiencing a huge amount of growth with quality development all over town. In just the past 5 years, we have added 2 Fortune 500 companies to town. This is a feat few other cities can boast of. And, take a look here to see all of the urban development happening in Jax which is tranforming the urban core here:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/urban-development/
And, we have taller buildings proposed and under construction here than any city in FL except Miami.

Finally, the metro area now stands at 1.25 million and is growing by at least 10% per decade. We arent growing exponentially like Orlando and Las Vegas, but I wouldnt say that most of their growth is quality anyway. I prefer our steady pace to a boom/bust cycle.

Based on what you said, you have never even lived in Jacksonville and you seem a little bitter, perhaps based on some negative experience your parents had in Jacksonville. I also detect a note of anti-Christian bias. Is Jacksonville conservative and largely Christian? Yes. Is it an exciting place with nightlife, business and lots of new development? Yes again.

I am a native and lifelong resident of Jacksonville and, trust me, Jacksonville is moving forward today like at no time in the past and we are doing better today than ever before. I would suggest you visit and open your eyes to all the progress being made here.

By the way, do backward cities have condo proposals (51 stories, 582 feet) like this, which is currently in sales:



Or this (38 stories, 437 feet, currently under construction):



Or this (68 stories, 650+ feet, proposed):



I think you have just lost the argument, my friend. :yes:

Two quick points ...

1) Jax is undergoing explosive growth by any measure. The comments about Jax being stagnant or growing slowly are so bizarre and unfounded that I'm basically at a loss for how to respond.

2) The last member of First Baptist Church to run for mayor got 4% of the vote. That's right, 4%. With that in mind, is anyone going to make another post talking about how the baptists control Jacksonville? Please.

RiversideGator said:

Based on what you said, you have never even lived in Jacksonville and you seem a little bitter, perhaps based on some negative experience your parents had in Jacksonville. I also detect a note of anti-Christian bias. Is Jacksonville conservative and largely Christian? Yes. Is it an exciting place with nightlife, business and lots of new development? Yes again.

I am a native and lifelong resident of Jacksonville and, trust me, Jacksonville is moving forward today like at no time in the past and we are doing better today than ever before. I would suggest you visit and open your eyes to all the progress being made here.

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listed homie.. i am NOT bitter about jax at all.. in fact, i love jax and i REALLY want to move there. i love the culture and climate, etc.. but i'm just growing really impatient with the growth of the city.. maybe its because i'm from central florida where we're booming like crazy and you can actually see city districts form before your eyes, but i just think in comparison jax is doing little to try to keep up with the pace of florida in general.

the only thing thats keeping me from moving there is the lack of things to do for the locals.. believe me, i go to jax quite often and anything more than 2 days and you've already exhausted all the options.. i dont mean downtown either, i comb the county through orange park, to southside, to arlington, to mandarin, to san marco and all the way to the beaches.. jax just seems a little to monotonous, although i love the people and the attitude-- i'm just hoping it could somehow incorporate the culture with a little more of a bigger city feel

I don't think that Jax is all that lacking in things to do for a city its size. Sure, the activities for locals in this area may be a little different (more eco and history based) than the plastic world of Orlando (no diss intended) for example. But, I don't think a city has to be a thrill-a-minute type of place in order to be highly livible, either. And I don't think a city has to convert itself into a tourist mecca in order to achieve high growth, just look at Phoenix, Charlotte, Dallas, or Atlanta. The last thing Jax needs to do is promote itself as a resort/tourist/retirement town. It's all in HOW you promote your city. If Jax started promoting itself that way, it would be percieved as just another "Florida city" by the American public with an economy based on attractions and a place to send your elderly parents when you don't want to deal with them anymore. This perception would lead to reality, with (oh goody!) lots of minimum wage services jobs and no more Fortune 500 companies moving here (why would a major company move its headquarters to a "tourist town"?), tacky faux South Florida-style developments, lop-sided aging population, and generic "McFlorida-style" identity. If Jax is going to promote itself to achieve more growth, which I am all for, it needs to take lessons from the likes of Atlanta. That city has the most aggressive leadership, both governmental and civic, of any city I've ever heard of, and it didn't begin with Shirley Franklin. Charlotte appears to also fall into that catagory of aggressive government and civic leadership. Jax needs elected leaders who are progressive and ambitious, and locally based companies that want great things to happen here and are willing to put money into things that better Jax. When you have that combo working together, you become a city that is a thriving economic engine with high paying jobs, a diversified economy, a balanced population age wise. Tourism makes a nice sub-catagory for a city's economy, and a good outlet to promote the benefits of a town, but it shouldn't take up the lion's share of a city's economy, at least not in Jax's case.