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Galactic Ruler
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6,852 Posts
Miliux I am in total agreement. Now it's time to spend a little to offset the problems we face with distance, dwindling oil and environmental concerns. I wouldn't be advocating regional centre population increases however but rather consolidation of the existing large centres we have.
 

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skyscraper connoisseur
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6,202 Posts
Australia cannot continue to feed the CBD-centric method of planning as if most jobs are concentrated in City of Melbourne or City of Sydney. This is just complete chaos and will only cause further congestion by commuters who follow just one direction instead of both. One does not have to live in the city just to work in the city.

Currently, there is a sense of buzz about the planned multi-billion pound high speed rail link in Great Britain. Totally reshape how people travel.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8245758.stm
 

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Like whatever....
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9,177 Posts
Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Spain have mountainous terrains and there are extensive tunnels just for high speed rails.
Fast-track the video to 2:00min. You will see the type of terrain Spanish AVE go through.
Nice!!

Whats Australia's fastest train system at the moment, XPT or Tilt Train?
 

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Sexiest Creature
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687 Posts
Pfft you are boring. Go hard or go home ... It's maglev or don't bother IMO.
I think 250km/h is good for a start. Some lines could be modified to allow for further 250km/h running which could significantly drop interstate travel.

Something from a while back... (but make lines all take upto 250km/h)


Although a TGV or Shinkansen style train would be desirable.
 

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745 Posts
The Maglev or HSR as a nation building scheme, it could work... but there are inherent problems and risks.

1. this country is not going to have the money to do both Melb-Syd and syd-bris, so its one or the other. And in the future when a superior system comes along we will end up with a rail gauge difference problem so to speak.
The Japan Rail MLX-001 is a completely different design to the German Transrapid.. so can we actually afford to hitch ourselves to one design now only to have to change it latter at greater cost when an even better form of travel comes along?

2. tilt trains now and maglevs later doing the short runs in nsw are far more practical as they will be stopping all the time, same for victoria and qld

3. maglevs running express only cbd to cbd are not going to be common, where as a plane goes direct and faster, and would be better serviced if the airport trains where maglev. And planes will get bigger and faster, mel-syd A380 anyone??

4. the population will merely shift between Syd, Melb,and Bris when either one of these has a boom and another a bust

5. the resulting collapse in house prices in the suburbs as people suddenly realise they can buy cheaper land in the rail corridor will have massive economic consequences

6. the massive population increase needed to fill this corridor without affecting the cities is vehemently opposed to by all and sundry. This really is only going to move the sprawl, which everyone on here is again so vehemently opposed to, all along the rail corridor. Its not a real solution to decentralisation and rural regrowth as it will merely create satellite suburbs for the big cities.

7. getting business, industry and government to coordinate moving into this new corridor is not something that happens in australia very well and will just be a massive stuff up anyway, over budget and poorly run

8. besides why do we have to do everything so fast, i mean what's the rush, we have ever faster internet making most need of travel redundant. How many people do you think really need to travel between the city and towns along the corridor, where they can then get off the super special train only to have walk every where because they don't have the practical reality of a car to go where they really want too in the 1st place? Its probably the same amount that could all fit onto a tilt rotor aeroplane - the future regional bus??

9. why have things competing with each other just for the sake of it. This is only filling a void that really isn't even there

10. there is nothing out there, its boring and lifeless. The people living there will turn into mid west yanks, depressed zombies that are worth more trouble then all of this nation building project is worth

So in the end high speed ground travel is a pie in the sky proposal if it thinks it can compete with aeroplanes over 500km

and don't discount the cannon idea in the future.. stranger shit has happened!
hahaha
:drunk:
end of rant... for now
 

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LowFlyingGoose
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467 Posts
So you are saying we should pack ourselves into big cities and deal with it?
No thanks! I would rather live in Castlemain or Cann River if only some basic infrastructure existed. Bendigo HSR? sure why not?
Is it not a bonus to business to purchase acres of land cheap rather than competing for zone space? would that not make doing business cheaper?
What about housing prices? Do you really want to live with half a million homeless people? You know, those casualised industries like warehousing where 1 full timer works among 30 casuals - next month, 10 casuals? How do you intend to house them when a bank does not even loan them money? Should they get married first? Hustle the bank because she is working full time?

Do you think more government handouts are in order?
Seriously! Government policy and lack of investment in basic - not super duper but basic levels of infrastructure created this mess starting with Jeff Kennett and then de-regulation then imported produce and Cubby bloody farm!
The other side of the coin is I don't want to live with sicko numb nuts emo man across the road who would kick you when you are down and do his best to kill you because you glanced at him and he didn't like it. I don't want to live in a city full of disrespecting monkeys!



Is it at all possible to run containerised freight at close to these speeds along the same corridor? Like Melb - Syd in 4 hours same day service? If so would that not crush road freight entirely on the same corridor eliminating the long haul and embracing the short pickup from pilot depots e.g. Sommerton? and again just outside Sydney, Canberra etc?

Is not aiming for effective and efficient transport the goal rather than spending billions on tarmac the length of the planet?

If freight is possible, then I would be backing it!
 

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Galactic Ruler
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6,852 Posts
Transrapid's design has remained fairly similar for a while now, there are two functioning tracks, the revenue service in shanghai and the proving track in germany. It's now proven technology and i think it allows for greater scope over the MLX-001, which at this stage has not been proven in a commerical setting. The track is more expensive and no definitive design for the cars has yet been made. It's a sexy system with more speed but i'd think we would be better to go with Transrapid.
 

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984 Posts
1. Melbourne-Albury-Canberra-Sydney network.

2. 2:30 max from SXS to Central. (ie. ~375km/h)

3. Fares should be competitive enough to
a) attract business away from the existing dominate mode of travel ie. air
b) attract no government subsidy, be fully user-pays
c) attract mainly intercity travel, not city-regional travel


If the above three conditions are not aware of any other reason why it should proceed.
 

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I've been to every high speed rail in Western Europe. ;)

High speed rail will become more economical because of the upcoming Emissions Trading Scheme. It effectively puts tax on transports which relies on carbon emission such as planes and motor vehicles.
All well and good, but in Australia where do electric trains get their power from? Hmmm mostly coal powered power stations.
 

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skyscraper connoisseur
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6,202 Posts
All well and good, but in Australia where do electric trains get their power from? Hmmm mostly coal powered power stations.
I just don't buy that argument. It's like we should stop all efforts to manufacture goods which reduces carbon footprint because the source of energy is mostly coal-powered. No more solar power manufacturing because it uses coal-sourced energy.

Source of energy should be changed, but also the consumer/business end.

According to preliminary report, it costs between $32billion-$59billion to build high speed rail between Sydney to Melbourne via Canberra.
http://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/files/A_Report_to_the_Council_of_Australian_Governments.pdf
 

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I think the most important regional links at this stage are Newcastle-Sydney and Wollongong-Sydney, and the Action for Transport express link proposals would bring most of the HSR benefits without the cost... these are what we should be asking for atm.
 

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I just don't buy that argument. It's like we should stop all efforts to manufacture goods which reduces carbon footprint because the source of energy is mostly coal-powered. No more solar power manufacturing because it uses coal-sourced energy.

Source of energy should be changed, but also the consumer/business end.

According to preliminary report, it costs between $32billion-$59billion to build high speed rail between Sydney to Melbourne via Canberra.
http://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/files/A_Report_to_the_Council_of_Australian_Governments.pdf
It wasn't an argument but a statement of fact. At no point did I say we shouldn't build the line, just saying the argument the poster that I replied to was flawed, in particular his assertion electric power was clean.

Personally I beleive we should have a high speed electric railway network even if it isn't cost effective to build. But in doing so we must look beyond coal power to provide the electricity to power the line. If you look at all the world leaders in high speed rail what do you notice about the bulk of their power stations?
 

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Rabid Furry Skier
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3,372 Posts
It wasn't an argument but a statement of fact. At no point did I say we shouldn't build the line, just saying the argument the poster that I replied to was flawed, in particular his assertion electric power was clean.

Personally I beleive we should have a high speed electric railway network even if it isn't cost effective to build. But in doing so we must look beyond coal power to provide the electricity to power the line. If you look at all the world leaders in high speed rail what do you notice about the bulk of their power stations?
Also keep in mind that it is a lot easier to replace one energy source (the power station for the railway line) compared to replacing thousands of energy sources (the plane and road vehicle engines, etc) that might need be taken into consideration.

Of course, it would be wise to plan both prior to building the railway line in the first place, but this is Australia we are talking about. Planning in Australian politics? Goodness me, and pigs happen to fly? :lol:
 
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