Does anyone have a feel for how common it is for light rail to eventually yield to heavy rail / subway development? I can see light rail as a short-term solution, but if the city is to densify, wouldn't it make sense to ultimately plan for subway-type heavy rail?
Baltimore Mass Transit
By June Arney | Sun reporter
May 11, 2008
Transit line potential discussed
Residents, officials trade ideas on city's east-west Red Line proposal
Hundreds of people came out yesterday to learn about and help shape plans for an east-west transit route in Baltimore - a project that would cost more than $1 billion and could go from dream to groundbreaking as soon as 2012.
Mayor Sheila Dixon's Red Line Summit drew more than 300 people to the Baltimore Convention Center to hear experts from around the country and to brainstorm about how more than 40 city neighborhoods could benefit from the transit project.
"The Red Line is critical to the future of our city for so many reasons," Dixon said. "It's not every day that a billion-dollar project comes to East and West Baltimore. The opportunity is there, and we have to seize it."
The proposed 12-mile transit line would operate from the Social Security Administration in Baltimore County to the Johns Hopkins Bayview campus in Southeast Baltimore.
Construction could begin as early as 2012, pending review and approval by the Federal Transit Administration and a funding plan endorsed by state and federal government. The Maryland Transit Administration has officially narrowed down its choices to a light rail system or a bus system operating in dedicated lanes, known as bus rapid transit, although it has also agreed to less formally consider proposals for heavy rail.
Vital to making sure that the project unfolds in the best interests of the city is making sure that a community compact is drafted that identifies the matters local residents consider most important, Dixon said.
In workshop groups, those who attended yesterday brainstormed about the top issues, including everything from monitoring noise and air quality and rats around the construction site, to making sure that WiFi and bike racks are present in the stations, to protecting historic neighborhoods.
Karen Shannon, owner of M-PALM, who is working on a project to provide information to people moving to the area as part of the federal government's military base realignment, came yesterday to learn more about transit plans that will become increasingly important with expected population growth.
"Fort Meade is going to become the ... Silicon Valley for the government," said Shannon. "With all of that, it requires an incredible amount of focus on how we're going to move people. I'm excited about what's going on in Baltimore City to the point where I'm going to relocate here. Baltimore City has a lot to offer."
While a bus system is still in the running for the MTA's final choice, much of the discussion yesterday focused on light rail.
Maryland Transportation Secretary John D. Porcari said there has been much innovation in the design of light rail cars since Baltimore's system opened 15 years ago. They are sleeker and lower to the ground now, making them fit into the scale of communities better, he said.
"We are going to make sure this system is built into the fabric of the community," he said. "That is our pledge to you."
Lee Kemp, chairman of the board of the Regional Transit District of Denver, said transit expansion in Denver has yielded new jobs, reduced traffic and offered other quality-of-life improvements through a system that transports 97 million passengers each year.
"The community is an important part of making this all happen," he said. "If we don't address the transportation needs today, it's going to be miserable in the future."
Baltimore officials hope to be able to take their Red Line proposal to public hearing by fall.
Rushon Brooks, 63, who inherited his parents' house near the West Baltimore MARC station in 2005, had attended a few meetings on the Red Line before coming to the summit.
"It would go about two blocks from my residence," he said of the house where his son now lives. "The value of the property would go up."
Others who attended yesterday had business ventures in mind that could be located near stations as part of what officials term transit-oriented development - residential, retail and office projects that cluster around transit stops in a model that has been successful around the country.
The idea of an east-west transit line in Baltimore is one that the Greater Baltimore Committee has backed for six years.
Existing lines come within two blocks of one another downtown, but don't connect, Donald Fry, president of the GBC, said in an interview.
"In a region that's highly populated, you can't just rely on highways," Fry said in an interview. "We've got to have strong mobility if we're going to grow by the hundreds of thousands that we're projected to grow by in coming years. If you wait until transportation becomes a crisis, it's too difficult to build out of it."
The region already is starting to see congestion problems, he noted.
State Sen. Verna L. Jones, a Baltimore Democrat, said she hoped that the work being done on the project would "make sure that a 'highway to nowhere' never happens again in Baltimore."
Baltimore's "Highway to Nowhere" is an aborted freeway that starts west out of downtown then suddenly terminates after about 1� miles instead of continuing on as planned to link Interstate 70 and Interstate 95. Once-stable neighborhoods were ripped up to make room for six lanes of sunken highway, now part of U.S. 40.
May 11, 2008
Transit line potential discussed
Residents, officials trade ideas on city's east-west Red Line proposal
Hundreds of people came out yesterday to learn about and help shape plans for an east-west transit route in Baltimore - a project that would cost more than $1 billion and could go from dream to groundbreaking as soon as 2012.
Mayor Sheila Dixon's Red Line Summit drew more than 300 people to the Baltimore Convention Center to hear experts from around the country and to brainstorm about how more than 40 city neighborhoods could benefit from the transit project.
"The Red Line is critical to the future of our city for so many reasons," Dixon said. "It's not every day that a billion-dollar project comes to East and West Baltimore. The opportunity is there, and we have to seize it."
The proposed 12-mile transit line would operate from the Social Security Administration in Baltimore County to the Johns Hopkins Bayview campus in Southeast Baltimore.
Construction could begin as early as 2012, pending review and approval by the Federal Transit Administration and a funding plan endorsed by state and federal government. The Maryland Transit Administration has officially narrowed down its choices to a light rail system or a bus system operating in dedicated lanes, known as bus rapid transit, although it has also agreed to less formally consider proposals for heavy rail.
Vital to making sure that the project unfolds in the best interests of the city is making sure that a community compact is drafted that identifies the matters local residents consider most important, Dixon said.
In workshop groups, those who attended yesterday brainstormed about the top issues, including everything from monitoring noise and air quality and rats around the construction site, to making sure that WiFi and bike racks are present in the stations, to protecting historic neighborhoods.
Karen Shannon, owner of M-PALM, who is working on a project to provide information to people moving to the area as part of the federal government's military base realignment, came yesterday to learn more about transit plans that will become increasingly important with expected population growth.
"Fort Meade is going to become the ... Silicon Valley for the government," said Shannon. "With all of that, it requires an incredible amount of focus on how we're going to move people. I'm excited about what's going on in Baltimore City to the point where I'm going to relocate here. Baltimore City has a lot to offer."
While a bus system is still in the running for the MTA's final choice, much of the discussion yesterday focused on light rail.
Maryland Transportation Secretary John D. Porcari said there has been much innovation in the design of light rail cars since Baltimore's system opened 15 years ago. They are sleeker and lower to the ground now, making them fit into the scale of communities better, he said.
"We are going to make sure this system is built into the fabric of the community," he said. "That is our pledge to you."
Lee Kemp, chairman of the board of the Regional Transit District of Denver, said transit expansion in Denver has yielded new jobs, reduced traffic and offered other quality-of-life improvements through a system that transports 97 million passengers each year.
"The community is an important part of making this all happen," he said. "If we don't address the transportation needs today, it's going to be miserable in the future."
Baltimore officials hope to be able to take their Red Line proposal to public hearing by fall.
Rushon Brooks, 63, who inherited his parents' house near the West Baltimore MARC station in 2005, had attended a few meetings on the Red Line before coming to the summit.
"It would go about two blocks from my residence," he said of the house where his son now lives. "The value of the property would go up."
Others who attended yesterday had business ventures in mind that could be located near stations as part of what officials term transit-oriented development - residential, retail and office projects that cluster around transit stops in a model that has been successful around the country.
The idea of an east-west transit line in Baltimore is one that the Greater Baltimore Committee has backed for six years.
Existing lines come within two blocks of one another downtown, but don't connect, Donald Fry, president of the GBC, said in an interview.
"In a region that's highly populated, you can't just rely on highways," Fry said in an interview. "We've got to have strong mobility if we're going to grow by the hundreds of thousands that we're projected to grow by in coming years. If you wait until transportation becomes a crisis, it's too difficult to build out of it."
The region already is starting to see congestion problems, he noted.
State Sen. Verna L. Jones, a Baltimore Democrat, said she hoped that the work being done on the project would "make sure that a 'highway to nowhere' never happens again in Baltimore."
Baltimore's "Highway to Nowhere" is an aborted freeway that starts west out of downtown then suddenly terminates after about 1� miles instead of continuing on as planned to link Interstate 70 and Interstate 95. Once-stable neighborhoods were ripped up to make room for six lanes of sunken highway, now part of U.S. 40.
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
I don't know of a single light rail line that has been converted to a heavy rail line. That's not to say it hasn't happened, but if it has, I don't know about it. I do know that Portland's long-term transit plans do include either converting their central downtown line to heavy rail or replacing it with another heavy rail line when the population increases and becomes more dense. I'm not sure when that will be, but I think projections put it sometime around 2050.Does anyone have a feel for how common it is for light rail to eventually yield to heavy rail / subway development? I can see light rail as a short-term solution, but if the city is to densify, wouldn't it make sense to ultimately plan for subway-type heavy rail?
I guess the question really should be whether heavy rail will really ever be necessary for Baltimore. Sure, heavy rail has greater carrying capacity, but at what point is light rail no longer effective?
London's Docklands Light Rail is a light rail system operating in Canary Wharf and other high density areas of London. Vancouver's SkyTrain is light rail, as well. Its two lines carry 220,000 riders each day, and it operates in downtown Vancouver, which is home to nearly 100,000 people and is incredibly dense. In Barcelona, Europe's second densest city (and denser than any North American city), three of the nine lines (those operated by FGC) are light rail.
So, I guess it would make sense to plan for heavy rail if Baltimore is looking to become as dense as Paris, but my guess is that is not in the cards. I think a well-planned light rail system will serve the city's needs well past the time when light rail and heavy rail become obsolete.
I don't think a light rail - subway conversion is likely since it would require a complete reconstruction. Even when a subway is at ground level, it requires a dedicated right of way because of the third rail, as opposed to the overhead line used for LR. The good news is that if they plan this right it will be much better than the current light rail, which was built on the cheap using the old retired North Central ROW.Does anyone have a feel for how common it is for light rail to eventually yield to heavy rail / subway development? I can see light rail as a short-term solution, but if the city is to densify, wouldn't it make sense to ultimately plan for subway-type heavy rail?
It might make sense, transit wise, to build a subway, but the current funding situation makes that almost a suicide pill. The feds are very reluctant to fund any new subway project that isn't backed by an existing system with a high volume (which we don't have). In addition, the State isn't flush with transportation money either, what with the trust fund having been looted by the previous administration. Honestly, we will be real lucky if they opt for LRT.
Thanks for the thoughts. I don't know a ton about this stuff -- sounds like LRT would be fine. I think I just have some DC Metro envy. ;-)
It would really be nice if it were more integrative and convenient for those in the White Marsh/Perry Hall area.
I wonder if the high price of oil and its future availability will change the thinking in Washington. Perhaps mass transit will be seen as a way of conserving energy. People are already flocking to mass transit where its available to reduce their fuel costs (look at the increase usage of the MARC train). Politicians are always reactive, not inovative or forward thinking.
I don't hear of any politician talking about increasing transit funding yet, but when they go home over the summer they might hear it from their constituents.
I don't hear of any politician talking about increasing transit funding yet, but when they go home over the summer they might hear it from their constituents.
MIGHT?! With the increase of STAYcations this year, they'll hear it from more than just the constituents.I wonder if the high price of oil and its future availability will change the thinking in Washington. Perhaps mass transit will be seen as a way of conserving energy. People are already flocking to mass transit where its available to reduce their fuel costs (look at the increase usage of the MARC train). Politicians are always reactive, not inovative or forward thinking.
I don't hear of any politician talking about increasing transit funding yet, but when they go home over the summer they might hear it from their constituents.
I think the Baltimore Sun deserves some credit for day-in and day-out drawing attention to the topic of mass transit. You're right that no politician has really placed any emphasis on mass transit. Dixon is pushing the Red Line, but her emphasis is on the Red Line as a development catalyst, not as a transportation substitute.
Nothing on the federal level is going to happen until the Bush Administration heads out (even today news broke that the administration stated that it was going to reject a Supreme Court ruling that places the regulation of greenhouse gases in the hands of the EPA), and unfortunately Maryland hasn't planned much in the way of local transit funding. If McCain moves to the White House, things will probably stay the same, at least for a while. If Obama is elected, there might be more hope for increased funding, but he still has never placed much emphasis on mass transit in any of his speeches either.
Nothing on the federal level is going to happen until the Bush Administration heads out (even today news broke that the administration stated that it was going to reject a Supreme Court ruling that places the regulation of greenhouse gases in the hands of the EPA), and unfortunately Maryland hasn't planned much in the way of local transit funding. If McCain moves to the White House, things will probably stay the same, at least for a while. If Obama is elected, there might be more hope for increased funding, but he still has never placed much emphasis on mass transit in any of his speeches either.
Unfortunately budgets continue to be the tail that wags the dog on transit. I'm glad to see Dixon adopting transit, for whatever reasons, but unfortunately the city will have nothing to do with paying for the thing. The war, the economy and bailouts of banks and mortgages will probably occupy a lot of money for a couple years that might come from the feds and the State's transportation fund has been in trouble since the Ehrlich days. I don't expect much to happen for a few years at best.I think the Baltimore Sun deserves some credit for day-in and day-out drawing attention to the topic of mass transit. You're right that no politician has really placed any emphasis on mass transit. Dixon is pushing the Red Line, but her emphasis is on the Red Line as a development catalyst, not as a transportation substitute.
Nothing on the federal level is going to happen until the Bush Administration heads out (even today news broke that the administration stated that it was going to reject a Supreme Court ruling that places the regulation of greenhouse gases in the hands of the EPA), and unfortunately Maryland hasn't planned much in the way of local transit funding. If McCain moves to the White House, things will probably stay the same, at least for a while. If Obama is elected, there might be more hope for increased funding, but he still has never placed much emphasis on mass transit in any of his speeches either.
Regarding the potentially prohibitive cost of building heavy rail...I wonder what the difference in cost would be to build LRT with the necessary tunneling through downtown and other necessary areas versus building heavy rail with the same concern for appropriate tunneling. Would it be that much of a difference?
It would be interesting to see the difference costed out. Generally LRT is cheaper than "heavy rail" (i.e., subway) but once you get into tunnels, the difference fades. LRT requires a bigger tunnel because of the need to accomdate overhead wires. Subways require a more expensive dedicated right of way when they are on the surface because of their third rail, which allows no grade level traffic crossings. Which is cheaper would depend on how much surface vs tunnel it has, how much the land cost is and whether it is practical to run a completely closed-off right of way along the route. This should keep the accountants busy for a while. The biggest factor, however, is that the Feds currently are not entertaining new subways except in the most compelling of cases. I doubt that Baltimore will qualify.Regarding the potentially prohibitive cost of building heavy rail...I wonder what the difference in cost would be to build LRT with the necessary tunneling through downtown and other necessary areas versus building heavy rail with the same concern for appropriate tunneling. Would it be that much of a difference?
Has anyone proposed an elevated rail system? It seems that if it could be integrated at some point, it would be easy to convert at some point from LRT to heavy rail because the ROW would be built in. One problem is that while it might be great for transporting folks, it might have an counter-development effect because locations along the line would have to deal with more racket than a street level or buried line. However, what about Lombard St in downtown? This ROW would make it more effective at getting people there more quickly than at the street level and outside of downtown it could be at grade level.
I have not heard of anything elevated any time in recent history; traditional "els" are noisy and evoke images of Dark City and old ones have been torn down. Monorails are fairly quiet but seem to only show up at Disney World. The thing that might come though is maglev. If that monster ever gets built, it will be elevated so it can have a completely separate ROW where it can get up to its scorching speed.Has anyone proposed an elevated rail system? It seems that if it could be integrated at some point, it would be easy to convert at some point from LRT to heavy rail because the ROW would be built in. One problem is that while it might be great for transporting folks, it might have an counter-development effect because locations along the line would have to deal with more racket than a street level or buried line. However, what about Lombard St in downtown? This ROW would make it more effective at getting people there more quickly than at the street level and outside of downtown it could be at grade level.
The maglev is never gonna happen, or at least not within 50 years:lol:
yeah, what is it about monorails? in theory it could be great! quiet, and much less expensive than digging a tunnel for a subway, but just the word "monorail" evokes disneyworld or that episode of the simpsons. can somebody think of a better name for it? is that all it would take?
Yeah, monorails have their share of image problems. I believe Sydney has a monorail in place that works pretty well. But you're right, even the Seattle monorail, which works perfectly fine, was built for the World's Fair. One problem is that their capacity is limited because they only travel in one direction. It limits the scope of where and how far they can go. If a monorail that traveled in both directions was built, I'm not sure how it would differ from traditional transit options. In Miami, we have the metromover. It is low capacity, but functions perfectly well. I'm not sure how expensive something like that was to be implemented.yeah, what is it about monorails? in theory it could be great! quiet, and much less expensive than digging a tunnel for a subway, but just the word "monorail" evokes disneyworld or that episode of the simpsons. can somebody think of a better name for it? is that all it would take?
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