[Andy H]

Firstly I'm not aware of anywhere in my post that I compared this city to London.

Secondly City Quays is not under construction. A part of the city quays plan is. Brunswick St. on the other hand may have been bought but that is not indicitive of any construction taking place any time soon. Note I named Bedford Sq, The Novotel, The Odyssey, and TQ as well. There's also Queens Sq, Montgomery Street, the 10 story thing on Dublin Road, Olive Tree House etc.

The recession put an awful lot of developers under yes I agree. We are now out of recession and have been for a few years but construction wise we are yet to see the recovery at all. My point is as a skyscraper/architecture enthusiast (like everyone here) I would like to see construction. Not renders and constant updates with yes work will begin soon.

It could be argued that city quays is very much under construction. City quays 1 well advanced; city quays 2 due to start next year, harbour common searching for hotel operator?? It was always planned as a phased build.

 

[belfastuniguy]

Firstly I'm not aware of anywhere in my post that I compared this city to London.

Secondly City Quays is not under construction. A part of the city quays plan is. Brunswick St. on the other hand may have been bought but that is not indicitive of any construction taking place any time soon. Note I named Bedford Sq, The Novotel, The Odyssey, and TQ as well. There's also Queens Sq, Montgomery Street, the 10 story thing on Dublin Road, Olive Tree House etc.

The recession put an awful lot of developers under yes I agree. We are now out of recession and have been for a few years but construction wise we are yet to see the recovery at all. My point is as a skyscraper/architecture enthusiast (like everyone here) I would like to see construction. Not renders and constant updates with yes work will begin soon.

No you didn't you moaned about nothing happening and your annoyance that multi-million development projects aren't happened, I used London as an example to illustrate that developments need finance and finance is only provided when the development can demonstrate an economic return, especially now given how many banks and businesses were badly burnt by reckless property lending.

City Quays IS under-construction, it's a phased development subject to market demand and always has been. As mentioned above CQ1 is under-construction, CQ2 has just been awarded permission and BHC are seeking an operator for the planned hotel, something they wouldn't do if they didn't plan to start construction on that soon.

Titanic Quarter's developer is in the process of re-financing their debt in order to make further development possible.

Odyssey Quays is a phased project and they only have outline permission. Work will commence on that once they secure full permission for each respective phase and once they have finance.

Bedford Sq was a massive office building planned before the crash and something that was going to be impossible to see an economic return on during the recession, a recession that we haven't been free from for years. economic recovery in NI has been slow and fragile.

As for the other developments. The student residential building on Dublin Road was approved a few months ago and since then I've seen workmen carrying out soil testing and piling samples to asses the ground, something you don't do unless you plan to commence work in he coming few months, which I believe is the case. The other developments you mention are primarily apartments, a market that is yet to see a substantial price recovery in Belfast, thus making them difficult to finance.

You fail to understand the reality of market conditions, finance restrictions and generally economic recovery. You also ignore the fact that while we're not seeing skyscrapers popping up all over Belfast we have projects under construction in Belfast representing nearly £1bn of investment. Projects such as City Quays, University of Ulster's Belfast campus, Queen's University's various projects and the Ulster Hospital's Phase B project, not to mention lots of other smaller projects.

 

[rsred75]

I agree that market conditions are still fragile and it would be great to see our badly hit construction sector getting a lot more projects, but you still see a number of cranes around Belfast so things are happening even if slowly.
But we have to be realistic because they're aren't many billion pound businesses who can easily get the finance and are looking to build here. Which is a pity because we hear a lot that there isn't enough grade A office space in Belfast and there are a number of big Businesses looking to locate.
I can't wait for the day I drive along the M3 between the tower at the odyssey and the Obel. Just hope I'm not too old to see it.

 

[JohnnyNI]

If there's a lack of grade A office space in Belfast then wouldnt it be beneficial to have a new office tower constructed in the city centre, such as Bedford Sq?

 

[thevanishin]

If there's a lack of grade A office space in Belfast then wouldnt it be beneficial to have a new office tower constructed in the city centre, such as Bedford Sq?

Only if finance makes it viable.

Let's be realistic here; Belfast is not likely to see more than 2-3 towers of over 25 floors during the next ten years, and even that I think is optimistic.

There is an abundance of brownfield sites in prime city centre locations, dozens of them are suitable for 5-10 storey office developments. Imagine you were managing property loans and a developer came for finance and asked for a loan for one of two options, one for a 30 storey tower costing £250m, or option B: five six storey buildings in different city centre locations, each at a fraction of that price but with a total floor space equal to that of option A.

It doesn't take a genius to see that financing smaller projects with the same total floor space as a skyscraper is the sensible option, because it mitigates the risk involved in massive projects, and allows for greater flexibility for prospective tenants. Not every client wants their office in skyscraper, and spreading the development across smaller sites is simply much better for urban development in general.

Local banks simply do not have the money available to fund skyscrapers, and won't have for years. Other financing institutions based outside NI will see that their money will see a faster rate of return by financing a similar project elsewhere. Look at the Obel - it was finished several years ago and last time I walked past there (admittedly several months ago) it was still not fully let.

It seems that every time I log on to this forum I see someone whining about a lack of skyscrapers. It's rather tiresome and is making these threads a bit boring.

Back on topic - I think Odyssey Quays would be mad to build the waterfront tower as the first part of the development. I hope they submit an application for phase 3 first, because they are likely to have a much faster rate of return on the office/hotel development than they will with high rise luxury apartments. That nice shiney tower in the renders will quickly look like shite if it's built to lay empty.

Remember the Elysian tower in Cork, anyone?

 

[JohnnyNI]

I don't think I'm whining about a lack of skyscrapers; I'm just asking questions and making conversation. Admittedly I'm not clued up about economics or the technicalities of it all - I simply like skyscrapers, which is why I joined a forum called skyscrapercity! Of course I realise Belfast isn't going to have an abundance of skyscrapers constructed but I'm still interested to see what develops.

 

[thevanishin]

I don't think I'm whining about a lack of skyscrapers; I'm just asking questions and making conversation. Admittedly I'm not clued up about economics or the technicalities of it all - I simply like skyscrapers, which is why I joined a forum called skyscrapercity! Of course I realise Belfast isn't going to have an abundance of skyscrapers constructed but I'm still interested to see what develops.

That wasn't a go at you, by the way ;-)

 

[belfastuniguy]

I don't think I'm whining about a lack of skyscrapers; I'm just asking questions and making conversation. Admittedly I'm not clued up about economics or the technicalities of it all - I simply like skyscrapers, which is why I joined a forum called skyscrapercity! Of course I realise Belfast isn't going to have an abundance of skyscrapers constructed but I'm still interested to see what develops.

I share your frustrations but most developments on this site aren't skyscrapers, unless your looking at threads for China and the like.

Belfast has a lot of wasted/empty space in the city centre. Unless we address that and the terrible urban massing and density we have then we're never going to see skyscrapers. Which is why projects like City Quays, Northside and so on will contribute to a much wider and more stable base for future tall proposals and projects.

 

[JohnnyNI]

Of course and I'm not expecting skyscrapers in Belfast in my lifetime but still like to keep up with developments that are taking place here. ..and checking out the scrapers being built in other cities

 

[Stephen2104]

Hello People, I am new to the board. I have been reading through this today. I understand that the financial conditions are not right at this time. But i am optimistic about a future of some high rise buildings here. Why cant there be? if there are other UK cities with skyscrapers. Then when the lower corporation tax is introduced here, it will increase the larger companies setting up here which should allow for infrastructure developments across the city to accomadate them. Which there is bound to be an appetite for tall/high rise buildings.

 

[rsred75]

Hope you're right, I'm a lift engineer and would like the work. High rise is always a bit more interesting. Though its right that we need to use up the space of the horrendous looking car parks, especially round the Queens bridge.

 

[thevanishin]

Then when the lower corporation tax is introduced here, it will increase the larger companies setting up here which should allow for infrastructure developments across the city to accomadate them. Which there is bound to be an appetite for tall/high rise buildings.

I wouldn't get too optimistic about changes in corporation tax now that there is a £billion black hole in the government budget. Lowering corporation tax would mean taking a further £200-300m out of that budget with no guarantee of return.

These articles are worth a read if you're interested in the corporation tax debate:
http://sluggerotoole.com/2014/11/03...t-be-the-biggest-mistake-stormont-ever-makes/

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/...alking-into-a-disaster-all-of-its-own-making/

 

[Boba Fett22]

I've think I've heard it said before that people should take no heed of what Richard Murphy says.

That's not me attacking you vanishin

 

[Boba Fett22]

Lowering corporation tax would mean taking a further £200-300m out of that budget with no guarantee of return

But we get 10 billion from the treasury every year.

300 million is a very small percentage.

You're right, there is no gaurantee of investors coming here if we reduce our tax but if we don't reduce it we'll forever be at a disadvantage when it comes to competing with the south for investment. At least with lower corporation tax we'll be much MORE likely to attract investment.

 

[Stephen2104]

We will find out in the next few years if it works or not because its going to happen. I do think large companies will set up here, with the lowest office costs in the uk combined with low c/t. And a competitive future workforce. why wouldn't they?
And if it goes well and companies are seeing the benefit's, Then the financials should be there along with the demand for high rise building's, to accomadate the companies employees under one roof.

 

[Cjmurphy85]

Assume there's been no movement on this project recently?!

 

[JohnnyNI]

I don't think there's the money/funding etc around at the moment for any of these proposed projects (including the likes of TQ, Royal Exchange, Queens Quay, Northside and so on). They're really just developers dreams for the foreseeable future.

 

[p1234]

Edit: BUG posted about this in Official Belfast Thread 1 minute before me!

 

[JohnnyNI]

Does this mean Odyssey Quays will be renamed SSE Quays?

 

[Ripper_Roo_NI]

I see Future Belfast has this proposal as beginning in May 2017.

Had completely forgotten about this exciting proposal. Do we have any more info on when we are likely to get any movement, or will this just be another Titanic Quarter where nothing will happen for years on end?