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I don't think that's the reason. The area had some residential construction in the past, and was zoned residential. City hall can't decide on its own to change the zoning to commercial, they need DPC approval. The Tel Aviv DPC isn't known to be pro-Bnei-Brak (or pro-Haredi), and wouldn't likely allow them to remove the residential units there. What City Hall did though was approve only lowrise residential construction there, so Haredim can take over. I hope the DPC forces them to build residential towers, but they don't have the authority (AFAIK) to suggest such changes.
 

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I see your reasoning, but I am not sure the facts on the ground support it.
The residential part is 8 floors, which is already too much for Haredim who refuse to use elevators during Shabbat.
So how exactly did City Hall manage to make sure Haredim take over this project?
I am pretty much 99% sure, Haredim won't live in these buildings, and if there are any who do live in this area (I doubt that very much), they will try to leave as soon as they can.
Also all political issues aside, why would Tel Aviv DPC be that hostile?
I mean, realistically DPC should be interested in seeing as much office area as possible, as it means, that the Bney Brak city council has enough money from arnona to not ask for subsidies.
Are they really that petty, that would rather see residents of Bnei Brak suffer and take money from Ministry of Interior on expense of other parts of Gush Dan?
That just makes no sense.
 

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I see your reasoning, but I am not sure the facts on the ground support it.
The residential part is 8 floors, which is already too much for Haredim who refuse to use elevators during Shabbat.
So how exactly did City Hall manage to make sure Haredim take over this project?
I am pretty much 99% sure, Haredim won't live in these buildings, and if there are any who do live in this area (I doubt that very much), they will try to leave as soon as they can.
Haredim do live in 8-floor buildings, it's not comfortable for sure on Shabbat, but some compromises need to be made when you have no space available. Since there are residential homes being demolished (not currently inhabited by the Haredim AFAIK), the upper floors can also be used for the existing residents. It's not like you need 100% Haredim in an area to make it a Haredi area. If they built 24-floor residential towers however, that would be a different matter entirely.

Also all political issues aside, why would Tel Aviv DPC be that hostile?
I mean, realistically DPC should be interested in seeing as much office area as possible, as it means, that the Bney Brak city council has enough money from arnona to not ask for subsidies.
Are they really that petty, that would rather see residents of Bnei Brak suffer and take money from Ministry of Interior on expense of other parts of Gush Dan?
That just makes no sense.
It's not a question of hostility or even politics, but imposing proper planning and zoning laws on municipalities that resist them. This does not always happen (to put it mildly), but the Tel Aviv DPC is relatively pro-dense-construction, including residential. It makes no sense to build residential lowrises in an area dominated by office skyscrapers. Nationwide financial issues aren't part of their purview and I doubt it's a consideration.
 

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Haredim do live in 8-floor buildings, it's not comfortable for sure on Shabbat, but some compromises need to be made when you have no space available. Since there are residential homes being demolished (not currently inhabited by the Haredim AFAIK), the upper floors can also be used for the existing residents. It's not like you need 100% Haredim in an area to make it a Haredi area. If they built 24-floor residential towers however, that would be a different matter entirely.
In Bnei Brak?
I highly doubt it.
Anything beyond 4-5 floors is pretty much unhabitable, unless you are prepared to use the elevator.
I am not aware of any new building in Bney Brak proper (the part inhabited by Haredim), where they built over 5 floors.
You are right, there are no Haredim there, and I am willing to bet there won't be any after this project's completion.
This place is not particularly close to parts of town where they live.
There are no synagogues, yeshivas,kindergartens,schools and other stuff that Haredim have in their blocks.
This place is simply unattractive to them.
Not to mention, since this part of the city won't get many more residential projects, they won't have enough "manpower" to properly get settled.
Most of them would rather live in some distant town such as Mod'iin Elit or Harish among their own kind, then in this project.
Knowing Haredim, I also doubt, an arrangement where top floors are left to "everybody" and the lower floors to Haredim, will work.
Perhaps it could work in Rehovot (not that it works here either), but certainly not in Bney Brak, which they consider "their own" town.

It's not a question of hostility or even politics, but imposing proper planning and zoning laws on municipalities that resist them. This does not always happen (to put it mildly), but the Tel Aviv DPC is relatively pro-dense-construction, including residential. It makes no sense to build residential lowrises in an area dominated by office skyscrapers. Nationwide financial issues aren't part of their purview and I doubt it's a consideration.
I understand the motive, but Bnei Brak is the very last place where encouraging density makes sense.
The city is already incredibly dense and poor.
Cramming anymore poor citizens in this town, with nobody paying arnona is sentencing this city to eternal life as the dirtiest, poorest, with the least services to the inhabitant, city in Israel (at least among Jewish populated ones).
Demanding more density, is easily the worst thing to demand from Bnei Brak, and DPC should be very supportive of this area becoming offices only (so as to maximize city's income).
I suspect, that was the reason for BBC project to begin with, so why interfere with it it now?
If there are some residents who want to continue to live in this area and in order to accomodate them (while removing the current abominations they live in), then sure, E/B sounds good.
But leave Haredim out of it and definitely don't try to relocate them into this area which is in my opinion an exercise in futility.
 

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There are quite a few new Haredi-oriented residential buildings with 7–8 floors in Bnei Brak now. Their living space issues are severe, and most of them don't want to move out. Going up and down 8 flights of stairs once a week is really a minor discomfort.

Example: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=148035945&postcount=78

And if they built residential towers in BBC, they certainly wouldn't be for the poor. That's my point: if you build a lowrise, it will become another Haredi slum, while if you build 30 floors it will be (and remain) a high-end apartment complex. It's likely that this is what the DPC thinks too, but they really only have veto power over plans, they can't just invent their own plan.
 

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Well, I stand corrected.
That building you linked in your post, sure looks unusual for Bney Brak.
But I still don't think Haredim will move to this place.
I mean why didn't they move in the slums that are still standing there?
By their standards, these slums are even more attractive then the typical residential building on Rabbi Akiva street.
I have passed by these slums a few times, they are inhabited by the usual mix of Israelis (from what I saw there are Sephardi non religious Jews living in these slums).
Thats not what I wonder about though.
What really got this discussion started, is your remark that DPC is interested in enforcing residentials in this area in general (with obvious emphasis on highrises like elsewhere in Gush Dan).
My main point was, that if thats what DPC wanted here, it is wrong.
If I were in DPC I would actually enforce policy similar to what Olmert tried for the Gush Dan in general (and was obvously a moron to do so).
He tried to not approve any residential projects at all and in doing so force people out of Gush Dan.
While it was shortsighted and wrong, I do believe in case of Bney Brak it is the only reasonable policy.
Bney Brak is in a very bad shape, and increasing density in the city with very little income and so many poor residents who don't pay arnona is just not sustainable.
DPC should indeed try to block any residential projects in Bney Brak and encourage Haredim move to periphery.
Thats the only way to prevent a major disaster at some later time.
 

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I think we completely agree that neither of us wants to see more Haredi slums in Bnei Brak, and that the place is severely overpopulated. However, I don't think blocking residential construction at the DPC is the solution. Here are some reasons:

* TMA 38 and some E-B schemes can be approved at the LPC level, so they can still add thousands of apartments if they feel pressured
* Towers are relatively more profitable than lowrises. A lowrise resident pays in arnona less than 40% of the actual cost of services, but because providing towers with some services is cheaper, their arnona might cover up to 50%
* In any case once the entire BBC area is full of office towers, Bnei Brak won't have any trouble with finances (as long as their spending is reasonable). As far as I can tell from their financial reports, in 2017 their deficit was less than 3%, which is actually on par with successful cities

Anyway, the real solution is to unite the entire Tel Aviv District (if not more) into one city, then Bnei Brak Haredi politicians won't even control the LPC. Then there can be huge gentrification and more strong populations coming in—after all, geographically it's an amazing location.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
omg so much bla bla.
BBrak LPC limits residential to 6 floors. with shops and a duplex, you can get 8 floors max.
thats the solution here. Orthodox overseas and in Jerusalem live with elevators
in highrises, so its local nonsense. but many large secular families also find highrises not suitable for kids.
 

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@Ynhockey, 3% deficit is indeed good news, but the level of services they provide is abysmal compared to other cities.
I still think they need much more money to make Bney Brak a little less 3d world.
Hope that BBC will provide enough income.

Regarding your proposal about uniting the cities, I think I already posted why this isn't going to fly.
Mainly because it is simply going to copy the political struggle between the Haredim and secular parties that goes on government level to the city level.
Hypotetical mayor of Gush Dan will be in a very bad place politiically when time comes to decide whether to allocate budgets for kindergartens in Bnei Brak vs kindergartens in southern Tel Aviv.
You know very well why it will be very controversial no matter which decision he makes.
Not to mention that from a political standpoint, clearly Haredim in this Gush Dan city council will wield much more power then their share in the population for exactly the same reason they do that on governmental level.
Bottom line, nobody will be happy with the result.
Neither Haredim nor secular.
 

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Then there can be huge gentrification and more strong populations coming in—after all, geographically it's an amazing location.
The prices are already not that cheap, and reaching towards a level that could trigger the gentrification process.

E.g $500,000 for a shabby 4 room apartment.

In the new-build apartment building projects, e.g. $700,000 for a new 4 room apartment.
 
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