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Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
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It's coming:

Behold the sprawl of 2060, when Atlanta and Charlotte finally converge



Researchers predict the formation of a mega region. Welcome to Char-lanta, y'all.

Here’s my new favorite fact about our sprawl: the 28-county region that the U.S. Census bureau considers to be metro Atlanta has a bigger land area than the entire state of Massachusetts (8,376 square miles vs. 7,800). If that’s not mind blowing enough for you, consider this: Our regional footprint will expand even more over the next half century, with Atlanta spreading all the way to Chattanooga and eventually engulfing Charlotte. According to projections by a team of researchers at North Carolina State University and published at Plos One this week, sprawl in the southeastern U.S. will continue over the coming decades, with urbanization increasing by 101 percent to 192 percent by 2060.

The researchers used not only population projections, but also calculations for “urban extent,” i.e. new development. Don’t conflate this use of “urban” with the notion of walkable urbanism; most of this will, in the words of the researchers, be “business as usual,” auto-centric, low-density building and infrastructure. What will this mean for us? “A new, completely connected megalopolis … extending from Raleigh, to Atlanta.” Economists and demographers have talked about a regional pairing of "Char-lanta" for a while. Evidently, we will literally be connected one day.

[...]
See more at: http://www.atlantamagazine.com/agen...arlotte-finally-converge#sthash.Rf5Q3cP4.dpuf


http://www.yourwildlife.org/2014/07/the-rise-of-charlanta/
 

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National trends are starting to move towards urban gentrification which should help stifle or at least slow suburban sprawl. Millennials' idea of the American Dream isn't the same as the baby boomers'. Downtown Atlanta and Charlotte will likely both be Manhattanized before there is continuous sprawl the entire distance.
 

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When I was a school kid back in the 60s and 70s, it was said there would be an enormous elongated megalopolis starting in Winston Salem, and ending at Raleigh.

They never mentioned "Charlanta" back then.

The Winston Salem-to- Raleigh megalopolis sounds more likely to me.
 

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I take exception to this "Charlanta" branding! I don't recall people referring to the northeast as New Bostelphia! I've never seen a celeb-style mashup for Baltimore & DC! (Balitlumbia?) Why must this area be shortchanged by some TMZ reporting?

National trends are starting to move towards urban gentrification which should help stifle or at least slow suburban sprawl. Millennials' idea of the American Dream isn't the same as the baby boomers'. Downtown Atlanta and Charlotte will likely both be Manhattanized before there is continuous sprawl the entire distance.
As a regional planner somewhere in that morass I'll take that bet. I do agree that the urban cores of Atlanta, et al, will continue to become more appealing and ped friendly, but at the same time all those counties in between are similarly trying to grow and lure jobs. The entire run of I-85 in northeast GA is populated by communities with rich agrarian histories and stable agricultural industries yet their ambitions are to grow, grow, grow! And I think the new hospital in Lavonia (Exit 171?) will go a long way to fostering that.

I do think much of this will take on a more appealing air than conventional suburbia. There are more plans for revitalizing historic town centers (Toccoa, Hartwell...), there'll be more bike options and conservation design subdivisions, as well, but it seems inevitable that down here the impetus to build in greenfields over grayfields remains very strong.
 

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I take exception to this "Charlanta" branding! I don't recall people referring to the northeast as New Bostelphia! I've never seen a celeb-style mashup for Baltimore & DC! (Balitlumbia?) Why must this area be shortchanged by some TMZ reporting?

As a regional planner somewhere in that morass I'll take that bet. I do agree that the urban cores of Atlanta, et al, will continue to become more appealing and ped friendly, but at the same time all those counties in between are similarly trying to grow and lure jobs. The entire run of I-85 in northeast GA is populated by communities with rich agrarian histories and stable agricultural industries yet their ambitions are to grow, grow, grow! And I think the new hospital in Lavonia (Exit 171?) will go a long way to fostering that.

I do think much of this will take on a more appealing air than conventional suburbia. There are more plans for revitalizing historic town centers (Toccoa, Hartwell...), there'll be more bike options and conservation design subdivisions, as well, but it seems inevitable that down here the impetus to build in greenfields over grayfields remains very strong.
I tend to agree.

When you look at the growth trends of the counties along I-85 outside metro Atlanta, you see the beginnings of Atlanta like growth (and job growth) from 2000 to 2010. Only Franklin county along the I-85 corridor in GA is yet to experience any growth.

Jackson County 45.4%
Banks County 27.5%

I don't however think even these counties will converge with Atlanta but will more likely become a part of one of the adjacent metros, Athens, Gainesville or Anderson S.C. or form a new MSA.
 

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Charlotte's Mecklenburg county is seeing much larger growth than Other counties in the metro. The only counties seem to be growing touches Mecklenburg, the others seem to be losing or very slow growth.

2010-2013

Mecklenburg - 7.3% increase

Counties that touch Mecklenburg

York, SC 5.5% Growth
Union, NC 5.2% Growth
Cabarrus, NC 4.8% Growth
Lancaster, SC 4.6% Growth
Iredell, NC 2.7% Growth
Lincoln, NC 1.7% Growth
Gaston, NC 1.6% Growth

Counties not touching Meck

Rowan, NC 0% Growth
Catawba, NC .3% Growth
Chester, SC -1.7% Loss
Cleveland,NC -1.5% Loss



Still sprawl but still hope. No Charlanta. Unless we name a high speed rail that.
 

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CHARLEIGH

When I was a school kid back in the 60s and 70s, it was said there would be an enormous elongated megalopolis starting in Winston Salem, and ending at Raleigh.

They never mentioned "Charlanta" back then.

The Winston Salem-to- Raleigh megalopolis sounds more likely to me.
The Charlotte-(Winston-Greensboro-Durham)-Raleigh megalopolis has about 7 million people now. Not bad but only one interstate to link these. Hope NC is moving forward (fast) with rail and/or other links...
 

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The Charlotte-(Winston-Greensboro-Durham)-Raleigh megalopolis has about 7 million people now. Not bad but only one interstate to link these. Hope NC is moving forward (fast) with rail and/or other links...

I think the Amtrak connecting Winston-Charleighboro is one of the best performing lines outside of the Northeast corridor.
 

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The Charlotte-(Winston-Greensboro-Durham)-Raleigh megalopolis has about 7 million people now. Not bad but only one interstate to link these. Hope NC is moving forward (fast) with rail and/or other links...
Good Morning and Happy Labor Day UrbanMyth:), Our SSC Friendly Family Friend:banana:,
I'm a Big Traveler through the Southeastern States, and just noticed your Post here in the Southeast thread. Me Being a SSC member here for over 10 years now, I get a little excited at times, but I had a good cup of coffee and read your post here and then spilled my Coffee:lol: when you posted I - 77 ( Which Is the only one interstate you have to be talking about with a MSA of 7 Million people now, I got a little excited again:lol:
I'm turning 60 on Dec. 10th , this year, and Have traveled every Interstate in North Carolina and have relatives living in Charlotte ( Go Panthers ) as in Florida we love Panthers and only a few left in the Florida Everglades, in fact Less than 66 left and losing each year, mainly because of growth in Florida Hitting 20 Million by 2020 !!:eek:hno::nuts:
North Carolina Has a Population of 9 Million Plus , but many are moving to South Carolina Lately South of the border:) and I don't mean Dillon , SC .:lol:, What I'm trying to say UrbanMyth:) is The MSA of Miami - Fort Lauderdale -Boca Raton - West Palm Beach Megalopolis is Over 7 Million People with Only One Interstate, I -95 and Three International Airports in less than 65 Miles in Travel one end to the other. Please tell me as a friend there's Less than 4 Million People In the MSA Area of I -77 's , 109 Mile through the State of North Carolina, Because I've been on all of them including I -40, I - 85, I -277, and I -95:banana:, Thank You and Have a Great Labor Day My Friend:cheers:
 

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Good Morning and Happy Labor Day UrbanMyth:), Our SSC Friendly Family Friend:banana:,
I'm a Big Traveler through the Southeastern States, and just noticed your Post here in the Southeast thread. Me Being a SSC member here for over 10 years now, I get a little excited at times, but I had a good cup of coffee and read your post here and then spilled my Coffee:lol: when you posted I - 77 ( Which Is the only one interstate you have to be talking about with a MSA of 7 Million people now, I got a little excited again:lol:
I'm turning 60 on Dec. 10th , this year, and Have traveled every Interstate in North Carolina and have relatives living in Charlotte ( Go Panthers ) as in Florida we love Panthers and only a few left in the Florida Everglades, in fact Less than 66 left and losing each year, mainly because of growth in Florida Hitting 20 Million by 2020 !!:eek:hno::nuts:
North Carolina Has a Population of 9 Million Plus , but many are moving to South Carolina Lately South of the border:) and I don't mean Dillon , SC .:lol:, What I'm trying to say UrbanMyth:) is The MSA of Miami - Fort Lauderdale -Boca Raton - West Palm Beach Megalopolis is Over 7 Million People with Only One Interstate, I -95 and Three International Airports in less than 65 Miles in Travel one end to the other. Please tell me as a friend there's Less than 4 Million People In the MSA Area of I -77 's , 109 Mile through the State of North Carolina, Because I've been on all of them including I -40, I - 85, I -277, and I -95:banana:, Thank You and Have a Great Labor Day My Friend:cheers:
Hello! Hope you are well....

I am referring to the I-85 ... roughly 160 miles from Charlotte to Raleigh.

NC's I-85 Corridor Metros (CSAs 2014):

Charlotte: 2.6 million
Greensboro-Winston-Burlington: 1.6 million
Durham-Raleigh: 2.1 million
 

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If this happens, I'm moving; or at least never driving on I-85/40 ever again. I suppose the SESHR will help relieve traffic a bit, but one of the reasons I like the Triangle is that it's a bit smaller and more artsy than Charlotte or Atlanta, but I fear that will be overrun by endless generic suburban development. I hate the southern big cities; they all have CBDs dominated by corporate office towers (w/o retail frontage) which destroy any semblance of a street life, and then for only about 1 mile radius you have a semi-urban area which is sorta cool with restaurants, bars, and condos but also with crappy neighborhoods and outside of that you have endless auto-dependent suburbs. I suppose this could describe Raleigh as well, but it becomes worse with scale. I hope to god we can get our shit together after witnessing the mistakes Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Charlotte, and to a lesser extent Austin made.
 

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If this happens, I'm moving; or at least never driving on I-85/40 ever again. I suppose the SESHR will help relieve traffic a bit, but one of the reasons I like the Triangle is that it's a bit smaller and more artsy than Charlotte or Atlanta, but I fear that will be overrun by endless generic suburban development. I hate the southern big cities; they all have CBDs dominated by corporate office towers (w/o retail frontage) which destroy any semblance of a street life, and then for only about 1 mile radius you have a semi-urban area which is sorta cool with restaurants, bars, and condos but also with crappy neighborhoods and outside of that you have endless auto-dependent suburbs. I suppose this could describe Raleigh as well, but it becomes worse with scale. I hope to god we can get our shit together after witnessing the mistakes Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Charlotte, and to a lesser extent Austin made.
Have you been to Charlotte lately? Don't mean to get into a pissing contest, but it's light years more urban/interesting than Raleigh. For one, it has light rail, and, it's built its sporting venues and new art museums in the center of the city not in suburban office parks. Raleigh was interesting (even daring 25 years ago when I moved there from New. York City for graduate school in design), now it's mediocre. Raleigh has become a bigger Cary, NC...a generic (beige) suburb where "urban design" means shopping centers have to be painted a neutral shade of gray. Raleigh could learn something or two or three from other places like Charlotte, Atlanta, and Austin, TX; which, while imperfect, at least have a vision.
 

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Have you been to Charlotte lately? Don't mean to get into a pissing contest, but it's light years more urban/interesting than Raleigh. For one, it has light rail, and, it's built its sporting venues and new art museums in the center of the city not in suburban office parks. Raleigh was interesting (even daring 25 years ago when I moved there from New. York City for graduate school in design, now it's mediocre. Raleigh has become a bigger Cary, NC...a generic (beige) suburb where "urban design" means shopping centers have to be painted a neutral shade of gray. Raleigh could learn something or two or three from other places like Charlotte, Atlanta, and Austin, TX; which while imperfect, at least have a vision.
The blue line travels between the ultra-corporate area of central uptown and Southpark, the pinnacle of generic faux-urban design.. (It's North Hills on steroids.) (But at least it's not Ballentyne.)

What are you talking about? 1990 was DTR's darkest hour, since the livable streets initiative was adopted, the convention center was built, Memorial Auditorium was remodeled, CAM (contemporary art museum) was opened, and the Amphitheater was built, Downtown has had a transformation, no longer do hundreds of warehouses sit empty, they've been transformed into cool bars, breweries, restaurants, and offices. (and even a chocolate factory, your move Charlotte) New condos with retail frontages (which is key) are going up all around the city.

Yeah, the newly annexed areas of North Raleigh are Cary-like, but Charlotte has twice the generic suburbs that Raleigh does within its city limits. It's true that it would have made more sense to put PNC Arena in downtown, rather than in West Raleigh, however it's not that big of a deal. But the NCMA's location is actually great, if it was downtown it wouldn't have nearly as much exhibition space or the beautiful art park which is integrated with the city's greenway system, it's also located right on CAT Route 4, so access isn't an issue.
 

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If this happens, I'm moving; or at least never driving on I-85/40 ever again. I suppose the SESHR will help relieve traffic a bit, but one of the reasons I like the Triangle is that it's a bit smaller and more artsy than Charlotte or Atlanta, but I fear that will be overrun by endless generic suburban development. I hate the southern big cities; they all have CBDs dominated by corporate office towers (w/o retail frontage) which destroy any semblance of a street life, and then for only about 1 mile radius you have a semi-urban area which is sorta cool with restaurants, bars, and condos but also with crappy neighborhoods and outside of that you have endless auto-dependent suburbs. I suppose this could describe Raleigh as well, but it becomes worse with scale. I hope to god we can get our shit together after witnessing the mistakes Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Charlotte, and to a lesser extent Austin made.
You need to look at Atlanta a bit closer if this is what you think it is. Downtown has a population of nearly 30,000 residents and there are very nice neighborhoods in town that are urban and connected far further than a 1-mile radius. The suburbs vary, but dozens of them are connected by rail transit and many of them are actually much more urban and non-generic than you would think. The trick is to not lump all southern cities into the same bucket by making assumptions about things when you really obviously don't have all the information. The same goes for every "mistake" city you mentioned.
 

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The blue line travels between the ultra-corporate area of central uptown and Southpark, the pinnacle of generic faux-urban design.. (It's North Hills on steroids.) (But at least it's not Ballentyne.)

What are you talking about? 1990 was DTR's darkest hour, since the livable streets initiative was adopted, the convention center was built, Memorial Auditorium was remodeled, CAM (contemporary art museum) was opened, and the Amphitheater was built, Downtown has had a transformation, no longer do hundreds of warehouses sit empty, they've been transformed into cool bars, breweries, restaurants, and offices. (and even a chocolate factory, your move Charlotte) New condos with retail frontages (which is key) are going up all around the city.

Yeah, the newly annexed areas of North Raleigh are Cary-like, but Charlotte has twice the generic suburbs that Raleigh does within its city limits. It's true that it would have made more sense to put PNC Arena in downtown, rather than in West Raleigh, however it's not that big of a deal. But the NCMA's location is actually great, if it was downtown it wouldn't have nearly as much exhibition space or the beautiful art park which is integrated with the city's greenway system, it's also located right on CAT Route 4, so access isn't an issue.


The blue line doesn't serve SouthPark at all. It offers a bus connection but it's much easier just to take the bus to SouthPark directly than fiddle with light rail. The buses to SouthPark are fairly light on people, easy, clean & direct.

But. If Blue line did serve SouthPark, our numbers could easily increase by a huge margin. I read somewhere SouthPark is the 2nd or 3rd largest area in terms of office space. RTP being either 2nd or 3rd.


One the Extension & Gold line has a complete extension, the largest employment centers and destinations will be served (Airport, Hospitals, Mutiple Universitys, uptown, University City, SouthEnd, Uptown, Plaza, NoDa).

Hopefully in the bearish future plans will extend blue Line again to include Ballantyne.


Edit: It's Ballantyne. Not Ballentyne. You might want to speak on behalf of your own city, Raleigh as opposed to teaching residents of their own city where their light rail goes & such.

I'm sure the city would be doing the can can if blue line served SouthPark.
 

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Not to put too fine of a point on it, but Raleigh was more interesting and had more potential 25 years ago. Every growing city misses opportunities, but in Raleigh's case, an unwillingness to take chances and tap into the city's creative pool has led to too many squandered opportunities...the arena was one, but the list includes Brier Creek, Triangle Town Center and the old Plantation Inn site, Hillsborough Street (over designed with too "roundabouts"); Capital Boulevard, Western Boulevard, Wakefield; it almost blew it's chances for Bedford at Falls River (a dramatic improvement, at the time, to subdivisions being built elsewhere in the US). The egos at Triangle Transit got in the way of working with Norfolk Southern on a central Triangle rail corridor and, on a chance to have commuter rail from Wilson to Raleigh and down to Smithfield. I still don't think the powers in the Triangle understand that development follows transportation...And, why, oh why, is it taking decades to get a core in or near RTP? What could have been a showcase at Brier Creek...what was called the Airport Assemblage, is now just another series of disconnected pods of self-contained sprawl-bits...pieces that might work together better if the city could temper its over zealous traffic engineers.

Anyway...I think Raleigh could be 10000 times more than what it is now...heck, it could still be the darling of Forbes and Fortune instead of Austin, Texas, but the ship may have sailed. Some things are getting better in Raleigh but it feels like a laggard, not a leader anymore...Cameron Village is FINALLY getting the residential component that the city could have demanded when the place was redone back in the early 1990's and of course Fayetteville Street and Glenwood Avenue and Five Points are cool.

On that score, though and my final observation, it may speak more to the idea too many of us have no idea what "urban" is supposed to be anymore and we confuse monochromatic strip shopping centers for good design? Maybe it doesn't matter since it's still one of the fastest growing places in the country...But if all Raleigh wants to be is mediocre, then fine...do nothing, there will always be people who are attracted to warm winters. If it wants to be a leader again, think big and think outside the box again.

Thank for indulging my rant for what it's worth.
 

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I take exception to this "Charlanta" branding! I don't recall people referring to the northeast as New Bostelphia! I've never seen a celeb-style mashup for Baltimore & DC! (Balitlumbia?) Why must this area be shortchanged by some TMZ reporting?
Boswash Corridor
 
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