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13 October 2010

Chinese veteran politicians call for reform

A group of 23 Communist Party elders in China has written a letter calling for an end to the country's restrictions on freedom of speech.

The letter says freedom of expression is promised in the Chinese constitution but not allowed in practice.

They want people to be able to freely express themselves on the internet and want more respect for journalists.

The call comes just days after the Chinese dissident Liu Xiaobo was awarded this year's Nobel Peace Prize.

Mr Liu was sent to prison for 11 years in 2009 for expressing his desire to see peaceful political change in China.

The letter's release also comes ahead of a key party meeting that is expected to promote future leaders and shape policy for the next few years.

Specific demands

The authors of the letter describe China's current censorship system as a scandal and an embarrassment.

Many who signed the letter were once influential officials.

One author is a former personal secretary to the revolutionary leader Mao Zedong and a former editor of the official People's Daily newspaper.

They make eight specific demands - all designed to enhance Chinese people's right to express themselves in public.

They say people who lived in Hong Kong while it was still a British colony enjoyed more freedom than is currently allowed in mainland China.

The letter is addressed to the National People's Congress, China's parliament.

It was widely available on the internet - although it has already been taken down from many websites.

Eight demands for change

Dismantle system where media organisations are all tied to higher authorities
Respect journalists, accept their social status
Revoke ban on cross-province supervision by public opinion
Abolish cyber-police; control Web administrators' ability to delete/post items at will
Confirm citizens' right to know crimes and mistakes committed by ruling party
Launch pilot projects to support citizen-owned media organisations
Allow media and publications from Hong Kong and Macau to be openly distributed
Change the mission of propaganda authorities, from preventing the leak of information to facilitating its accurate and timely spread

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11529920
 

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I hope that by 2012 most ofvthese will be realised or will start to be implemented. As old habits die hard, I'm sure some local tyrants will find it hard to swallow.

But I'm against foreign companies buying up or have shares of Chinese newspaper or media companies for at least the next twenty years.
 

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I hope that by 2012 most ofvthese will be realised or will start to be implemented. As old habits die hard, I'm sure some local tyrants will find it hard to swallow.

But I'm against foreign companies buying up or have shares of Chinese newspaper or media companies for at least the next twenty years.
By saying that you are implying 'evil Westerners' are natural winners of the market. Why not give domestic media a true chance to flex its muscle rather than hide under the party umbrella?
 

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In my opinion, actually China has freedom of speech, if there are no a thread of ideology war from foreign countries.......the cold war mentality.

Since I'm not living in China and I can't feel anything there, but my conclusion is I can say China is quite confidence now. I read from other websites, a lot of Chinese complain about internet censorship.

I'm glad that China also planning to free their media and allowing private media companies. But I hope China has high ethics on media articles, because I don't want to see any cheap articles that will destroy Chinese people mentality. China media should be smart, realistic and educating.
 

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By saying that you are implying 'evil Westerners' are natural winners of the market. Why not give domestic media a true chance to flex its muscle rather than hide under the party umbrella?
Only twisted minds like yours would come to that conclusion. Where did I say that Chinese media companies should hide under the party umbrella? Are you familiar with the media? No? FYI I've been working in that field for over a decade and I know why Chinese media with little exposure to the might of "western" propaganda machinery needs time not only to adapt to the new found freedom, but also to have the financial muscle to fight off hostile take overs.
 

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Not Cwite There
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Only twisted minds like yours would come to that conclusion. Where did I say that Chinese media companies should hide under the party umbrella? Are you familiar with the media? No? FYI I've been working in that field for over a decade and I know why Chinese media with little exposure to the might of "western" propaganda machinery needs time not only to adapt to the new found freedom, but also to have the financial muscle to fight off hostile take overs.
Without being thrown into the deep end those media companies under the cosy unbrellas will ever dig their toes deeper from the shallow end? Because of the education and political system they'll forever be candles (Chinese speakers will understand this), so things would never be as simple as 'allowing a bit of time'.
 

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Without being thrown into the deep end those media companies under the cosy unbrellas will ever dig their toes deeper from the shallow end? Because of the education and political system they'll forever be candles (Chinese speakers will understand this), so things would never be as simple as 'allowing a bit of time'.

Fortunatly the Chinese gov. did protect a lot of industries untilthey are fit enough to compete with the international giants. Those people must have received a different education and lived under a different political system than the media people.
 

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I hope that by 2012 most ofvthese will be realised or will start to be implemented. As old habits die hard, I'm sure some local tyrants will find it hard to swallow.

But I'm against foreign companies buying up or have shares of Chinese newspaper or media companies for at least the next twenty years.
You realize though that if most of these demands are realised, that this would pave the way not only for unflattering news (about China and China's government) to circulate freely throughout China, but this would also vindicate Mr. Liu Xiabao, who as I understand it, has been campaigning for many of these same things.
 

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Only twisted minds like yours would come to that conclusion.
Twisted minds my ass. If you reserve the right to call everyone who disagrees with you "twisted" or "simple-minded" and other countries' leaders criminals, I reserve the right to call you a racist, bigoted closet nazi and your beloved CCP a bunch of old corrupt murdering bandits.

The CCP doesn't deserve to be called that but someone has to throw all that coal you dump all over this place right back at you.
 

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חבר1.0;65285391 said:
You realize though that if most of these demands are realised, that this would pave the way not only for unflattering news (about China and China's government) to circulate freely throughout China, but this would also vindicate Mr. Liu Xiabao, who as I understand it, has been campaigning for many of these same things.
I think all Chinese should know the unflattering news outsiders write about them, because many Chinese are still running around with a rose tinted glasses when they look at anything from the "west".

Mr. Liu would still be charged for collaboration with a hostile foreign entity and his 08charta demands no less than the end of the PRC. Even in Germany I would be charged if I actively advocate to abolish the current system and at the same time accept money from a hostile organisation.
 

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Twisted minds my ass. If you reserve the right to call everyone who disagrees with you "twisted" or "simple-minded" and other countries' leaders criminals, I reserve the right to call you a racist, bigoted closet nazi and your beloved CCP a bunch of old corrupt murdering bandits.

The CCP doesn't deserve to be called that but someone has to throw all that coal you dump all over this place right back at you.
Whatever floats your boat, hun. :cheers:
 

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Those proposals sound very nice, another step towards China's brilliant future. As long as extreme sensationalism, etc is never legalised. No country should allow ultrabiased media, it should be illegal globally.
 

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Yeah free speech is a good thing, however democracy really isn't
I am not trying to be argumentative or anything like that, but I am wondering why democracy is considered to be such a bad thing? I understand that people in China, for a number of reasons, don't want other countries dictating to them how they should go about living their lives, but I don't understand why democracy is such a bad thing, if, it gave the Chinese people the ability to put into power politicians and political parties that represent their individual interests? Shouldn't people have the right to improve both their life as well as their society by replacing governments that they deem ineffective, incompetent, or untrustworthy? Similarly, if people in China are happy with their ruling government, then they should have the right to keep it in power. But ultimately I think the Chinese people should be given the option to have a voice (in this regard).

I am not trying to preach to anyone or to criticize China's government or its political and legal/judicial systems. If people in China are happy with the status quo, then they should have the right to preserve it. However, I think if they are dissatisfied then there should also exist other options.

Although there are many things about China that are completely foreign to me (and vice versa), I think I can relate to people in China on some level, because the experiences that people in China are now going through are not all that different from what my own family has gone through in the last 40 years (2 generations).
 

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无目的美好生&#
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I am not trying to be argumentative or anything like that, but I am wondering why democracy is considered to be such a bad thing? I understand that people in China, for a number of reasons, don't want other countries dictating to them how they should go about living their lives,
True, we don't like other countries dictating us, but this doesn't mean any suggestions/advice from foreign countries are unwelcome. We typically resent any "advice" from countries that once invaded us. Why on earth do those ppl suddenly care about our lives? But rational suggestions from ppl with good knowledge of China will be considered.

but I don't understand why democracy is such a bad thing, if, it gave the Chinese people the ability to put into power politicians and political parties that represent their individual interests?
First, parties are formed based on ideology. We think there's simply no pointing to group ppl and that as far as governing a country is concerned, ideology is useless.
Second, every politician is an individual, every individual is unique. Just because Obama is more/less capable than Bush doesn't mean anybody in the Democrat more/less capable than his counterparty in the Republic. People within one party actually share very little in common except they all believe (presumably) in the same ideology (which is useless).
Third, having one party, is essentially like having no party at all. So if some politician/governer did something wrong, we blame this person, not the Communist Party. Also, very few comunist party members believe in comunism. It's merely a name for politicians and public servants in China, you could call this party Capitalist Party, Mr. Chan Party, X Party or Y Part.
Fourth, based on my experience in the West, those politicians in power tend to respresent the interests of corporations that pay their party in the form of 'donation', not really the interests of individuals.
Last point, in a democratic election, politicians are voted based on the speeches they deliver. You might have noticed Chinese normally don't talke much. We never judge ppl based on speeches, or so called 'communication skill', cheap talk anyway. So often what have been elected is not a capable politician, but a brilliant actor.

Shouldn't people have the right to improve both their life as well as their society by replacing governments that they deem ineffective, incompetent, or untrustworthy? Similarly, if people in China are happy with their ruling government, then they should have the right to keep it in power. But ultimately I think the Chinese people should be given the option to have a voice (in this regard).
Individual politicians that are in competent or not trustworthy should be replaced, not the government. The government is actually a rather abstract concept, we prefer to be precise. I guess ppl in the West like democracy coz they think having multiple parties means having them monitor each other. No, political parties don't monitor each other, they just fight and fabricate fascinating news in the media. What China now needs is law inforcment, perhaps an organisation that assess politicians' performance on individual level. But we don't believe having additional parties will make politicians play according to rules.
I am not trying to preach to anyone or to criticize China's government or its political and legal/judicial systems. If people in China are happy with the status quo, then they should have the right to preserve it. However, I think if they are dissatisfied then there should also exist other options.
China is now on the right track. We do need more freedom of speech and transparency, but not numerous parties. cheers:)

Although there are many things about China that are completely foreign to me (and vice versa), I think I can relate to people in China on some level, because the experiences that people in China are now going through are not all that different from what my own family has gone through in the last 40 years (2 generations).
You are from?
 

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True, we don't like other countries dictating us, but this doesn't mean any suggestions/advice from foreign countries are unwelcome. We typically resent any "advice" from countries that once invaded us. Why on earth do those ppl suddenly care about our lives? But rational suggestions from ppl with good knowledge of China will be considered.
Your points are well taken. And I have to imagine that if I were in your position, I would think the same way.

Regarding your question, I think people care about "your lives" for a number of reasons: political, ideological, economic, moral/ethical/compassion. I genuinely believe though that many people in the West care about "your lives" from a moral/ethical/compassionite point of view.

First, parties are formed based on ideology. We think there's simply no pointing to group ppl and that as far as governing a country is concerned, ideology is useless.
Although I am inclined to share your view on political parties, isn't China governed by a political party with its own ideology?

Third, having one party, is essentially like having no party at all. So if some politician/governer did something wrong, we blame this person, not the Communist Party.
Good point.

Also, very few comunist party members believe in comunism. It's merely a name for politicians and public servants in China, you could call this party Capitalist Party, Mr. Chan Party, X Party or Y Part.
Interesting. So my question is this. What options do people in China have if they do not like a politician? That is, is it possible for them to replace unpopular politicians? And shouldn't people be given some input (a choice) into which politician will run their town/community?
Fourth, based on my experience in the West, those politicians in power tend to respresent the interests of corporations that pay their party in the form of 'donation', not really the interests of individuals.
But I am not sure how the same cannot be said about politicians who are appointed rather than elected into power.

Last point, in a democratic election, politicians are voted based on the speeches they deliver. You might have noticed Chinese normally don't talke much. We never judge ppl based on speeches, or so called 'communication skill', cheap talk anyway. So often what have been elected is not a capable politician, but a brilliant actor.
While I sort of agree with this point, I still think that one nice thing about democratic elections is that they allow politicians to present their ideas and plans to the voters. Voters can then chose to vote for who gives the best speech or, more importantly, who offers the best ideas?


You are from?
I am from Israel, although my grandparents and parents were born in Poland.
 

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True, we don't like other countries dictating us, but this doesn't mean any suggestions/advice from foreign countries are unwelcome. We typically resent any "advice" from countries that once invaded us. Why on earth do those ppl suddenly care about our lives? But rational suggestions from ppl with good knowledge of China will be considered.


First, parties are formed based on ideology. We think there's simply no pointing to group ppl and that as far as governing a country is concerned, ideology is useless.
Second, every politician is an individual, every individual is unique. Just because Obama is more/less capable than Bush doesn't mean anybody in the Democrat more/less capable than his counterparty in the Republic. People within one party actually share very little in common except they all believe (presumably) in the same ideology (which is useless).
Third, having one party, is essentially like having no party at all. So if some politician/governer did something wrong, we blame this person, not the Communist Party. Also, very few comunist party members believe in comunism. It's merely a name for politicians and public servants in China, you could call this party Capitalist Party, Mr. Chan Party, X Party or Y Part.
Fourth, based on my experience in the West, those politicians in power tend to respresent the interests of corporations that pay their party in the form of 'donation', not really the interests of individuals.
Last point, in a democratic election, politicians are voted based on the speeches they deliver. You might have noticed Chinese normally don't talke much. We never judge ppl based on speeches, or so called 'communication skill', cheap talk anyway. So often what have been elected is not a capable politician, but a brilliant actor.


Individual politicians that are in competent or not trustworthy should be replaced, not the government. The government is actually a rather abstract concept, we prefer to be precise. I guess ppl in the West like democracy coz they think having multiple parties means having them monitor each other. No, political parties don't monitor each other, they just fight and fabricate fascinating news in the media. What China now needs is law inforcment, perhaps an organisation that assess politicians' performance on individual level. But we don't believe having additional parties will make politicians play according to rules.

China is now on the right track. We do need more freedom of speech and transparency, but not numerous parties. cheers:)


You are from?
^^^^^^:applause:
 

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First, parties are formed based on ideology. We think there's simply no pointing to group ppl and that as far as governing a country is concerned, ideology is useless.
Second, every politician is an individual, every individual is unique. Just because Obama is more/less capable than Bush doesn't mean anybody in the Democrat more/less capable than his counterparty in the Republic. People within one party actually share very little in common except they all believe (presumably) in the same ideology (which is useless).
Third, having one party, is essentially like having no party at all. So if some politician/governer did something wrong, we blame this person, not the Communist Party. Also, very few comunist party members believe in comunism. It's merely a name for politicians and public servants in China, you could call this party Capitalist Party, Mr. Chan Party, X Party or Y Part.
Fourth, based on my experience in the West, those politicians in power tend to respresent the interests of corporations that pay their party in the form of 'donation', not really the interests of individuals.
Last point, in a democratic election, politicians are voted based on the speeches they deliver. You might have noticed Chinese normally don't talke much. We never judge ppl based on speeches, or so called 'communication skill', cheap talk anyway. So often what have been elected is not a capable politician, but a brilliant actor.
Since your first assumption is wrong the other falls into pieces.
Left vs the right have very little to do with how the budget is spent and where to be spent.
The people have the right to place an opinion on how their money is spent and the only way to assure that is through an election selecting a representative.
That is what democracy is, placing an opinion on how the money that was collected through taxation is used, not some trivial ideology issue.
 

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I'm agree with cat_eyes in post #16.

I live in democracy country (with 30 political parties). I hope that our economy will grow as fast as promised and have a good public service like in Japan or Nordic countries. But it didn't happen.

We have a lot of problems. When I try to look the answer and see other third world democracy countries, it's surprising that they also have the same problem like us. It's not coincidence. There are something missing.
 
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