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shaman is back
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I'm afraid your example would rather prove my point. We call him Jagiełło in Polish, however if you look e.g. at the English Wikipedia, he is up as "Jogaila, later Władysław Jagiełło", which is fair enough and we don't have an issue with that.
Yeah sure - I still remember the wailings and screams of anger when this was implemented :) Why do you still use Jagiellon dynasty instead of good old Jogailaičiai then? :)

(a) to respect your history and the fact that heritage of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania can be claimed by contemporary Lithuania, Belarus and Poland,
They may claim the heritage of the Duchy that was left on their respective territories, but we are the Lithuania. We are the next of kin - the eldest brother who inherits the title so to say. Therefore we do not really care much for other opinions when it comes do deciding what's ours and what to do with it.

(b) to take into account that the names of people from your history should be presented on an English-speaking forum in such version, as they used themselves.
You are very right about one thing - it's OUR history. We call OUR historical figures as we do and have no intentions to change anything in order to please some overly sensitive Polish relatives ;)

Now I would really like you to stop polluting another brilliant thread by Depeched. Do you have anything to contribute other than your polonocentristic remarks?
 

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Interwar view of Tiškevičiai palace in Palanga



(...)
Are we talking about Tyszkiewicz family and Połąga city? Sorry, i know only original names, i hope you talk about them.
The town of Palanga was part of the newly established state of Lithuania after WW1, so Lithuanian was the official language there. No surprise there really.

Besides, Lithuanian description on that photo is not embedded/printed, but it looks just as a handwriting put down on it, which could've happened anytime since (e.g. during photo archiving).

From Wikipedia page on Palanga:
Palanga was purchased in 1824 by Count Michał Tyszkiewicz. His grandson Józef Tyszkiewicz built a pier and engaged ships to transport passengers and bricks to nearby Liepāja. Palanga began to develop as a resort in the early 19th century. The pier has been a favourite spot for taking a stroll and other recreation since 1892. Józef Tyszkiewicz's son, Feliks Tyszkiewicz, built the neo-renaissance Tiškevičiai Palace in 1897. The French landscape architect Édouard André designed a large park around the palace, between 1897 and 1907. The palace became a favourite gathering place for concert performances. Amongst the good friends and associates of Feliks Tyszkiewicz was the notary, Jonas Kentra.
At least there is shown a little respect for the Tyszkiewicz family name & heritage...

Why do you still use Jagiellon dynasty instead of good old Jogailaičiai then? :)
Because it's Jagiellon Dynasty?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagiellon_dynasty

They may claim the heritage of the Duchy that was left on their respective territories, but we are the Lithuania. We are the next of kin - the eldest brother who inherits the title so to say. Therefore we do not really care much for other opinions when it comes do deciding what's ours and what to do with it.
The GDL history didn't end up with Duke Vytautas. Even some of the Lithuanian historians already acknowledge that...

Between the wars, Lithuania's cultural compass rejected entire centuries of past history. Therefore the choice of siding with Poland was a way of saying: What are you trying to do? Presentify us, cross out the entire civilization evolution from the 15th century onwards? In other words, straight from Vytautas to Jonas Basanavičius and Žemaitė. Such discussions have been widespread since the beginning of the 20th century.
http://www.15min.lt/en/article/cult...iddle-of-general-lucjan-zeligowski-528-261617

You are very right about one thing - it's OUR history. We call OUR historical figures as we do and have no intentions to change anything in order to please some overly sensitive Polish relatives ;)
Yes, it's your history - in a sense that it relates to the lands, which form the territory of contemporary Lithuania. But it's not exclusively yours (Lithuanian Balts) in terms of the national & cultural identity of the people who had lived there. If you attempt to misappropriate the heritage of previous generations who inhabited the lands down there, you may face some opposition e.g. from Polish side. Simple as that.

BTW, do you have any comment to the below?
katsuma said:
Apart from encyclopedic sources and Wikipedia, a good way to check & confirm that is to look at the magnates' graves & epitaphs, which are located in present-day Lithuania.

(1) Epitaph in Latin & Polish on the tomb of Teodor Ogiński in Kruonis/Kronie: http://s10.postimage.org/k9afzttqf/ifprs61651.jpg

...and its translation into Lithuanian: http://s14.postimage.org/zb251brkv/in03sf1649.jpg

(2) Epitaph of Jerzy Tyszkiewicz in the Vilnius Cathedral: http://fotoforum.gazeta.pl/photo/1/q...w5eZaBXdMX.jpg

(3) Grave of Eustachy Tyszkiewicz on the Rasos/Rossa Cemetary: http://s10.postimage.org/xxsqqc2br/R...yszkiewicz.jpg

(4) Grave of Mikołaj Tyszkiewicz in Kretinga/Kretynga: http://www.genealogia.okiem.pl/foto2...GP4164%7E0.JPG

(5) Sarcophagi of Radziwiłł family in the crypt in Kedainai/Kiejdany, including the one of Janusz Radziwiłł:
http://i3.fmix.pl/fmi2017/3abea11700290b7b4df1e4d2 , http://i2.fmix.pl/fmi765/89bdac910027ab334ded115d , http://i1.fmix.pl/fmi79/133af5000011561f4df1e4c3
 

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Another example of a town located in Interwar Lithuania (BTW, Polish himalaist Wanda Rutkiewicz was born there in 1943).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plungė

Really surprising to see Lithuanian language on a postcard. And that surely had profound impact on the identity of local landlords, the Ogiński family, whose estate was confiscated by Lithuanian state in 1921. :lol:

I think guys who started this again will be banned.
Exactly, you should've talked to your buddy "kaspis" beforehand.
 

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shaman is back
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Because it's Jagiellon Dynasty?
...or because this time wikipedia writes something that you like? :) Why not go all the way and accept the REAL name of the dynasty? :D

Yes, it's your history - in a sense that it relates to the lands, which form the territory of contemporary Lithuania. But it's not exclusively yours (Lithuanian Balts) in terms of the national & cultural identity of the people who had lived there. If you attempt to misappropriate the heritage of previous generations who inhabited the lands down there, you may face some opposition e.g. from Polish side. Simple as that.
You deliberately try to squeeze Lithuanian history to after 1918, using some generic "Contemporary Lithuania". History of our nation lasts for a millenium. Our borders expanded and squeezed. We conquered and were conquered. We built the biggest state in Europe ...and lost it. We were russificated, polonized, germanized etc - yet we survived. And when it comes to history of Lithuania - this is OUR history and OUR heritage. Therefore as the old saying goes - don't tell us what to do and we won't tell you where to go ;)

BTW, do you have any comment to the below?
What are you trying to prove here? That Polish has become a lingua franca of the Lithuanian nobility at some point in history? :D They also liked tombstones in Latin - there's the real palemonid spirit! :)

Yet again I ask you - do you have anything else to contribute other than your polonocentric flow of mind? If not - please stop polluting this thread.
 

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Let me contribute to this thread with a few historic pics from the Interwar period 1918-39.
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Tyszkiewicz Palace in Landwarów/Lentvaris





Tyszkiewicz Palace in Zatrocze/Uzutrakis





(BTW, the restauration works on that palace in 2010 were carried out with the assistance of heritage conservatory specialists from Poland: http://kurierwilenski.lt/2010/07/23/zatrocze-odzyskuje-swoj-dawny-urok)
____

Druskieniki/Druskininkai (spa town)

The baths



View on the Inhalatorium building



Hotel "Europe"



Villa "Linksma"



Villa "Niemen"

 

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...or because this time wikipedia writes something that you like? :) Why not go all the way and accept the REAL name of the dynasty? :D
No, because it's a widely recognised name of that dynasty. Wikipedia is just one of the sources.

Encyclopedia Britannica: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/299331/Jagiellon-dynasty

Encyclopedia.com: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3404900565.html

...and a lot of others (ask Google :)).

You deliberately try to squeeze Lithuanian history to after 1918, using some generic "Contemporary Lithuania". History of our nation lasts for a millenium. Our borders expanded and squeezed. We conquered and were conquered. We built the biggest state in Europe ...and lost it. We were russificated, polonized, germanized etc - yet we survived. And when it comes to history of Lithuania - this is OUR history and OUR heritage. Therefore as the old saying goes - don't tell us what to do and we won't tell you where to go ;)
Look, Lithuania has a long and interesting history, which you can often be truly proud of. And nobody will take it away from you.

However, as I said previously, your history doesn't end up with Duke Vytautas and re-appears out of the blue in late 19th century. Within those several centuries the elites of Grand Duchy of Lithuania adopted foreign language & culture, Ruthenian and then Polish. And that you are not able to erase and replace it with an artificial Baltic Lithuanian substitute.

What are you trying to prove here? That Polish has become a lingua franca of the Lithuanian nobility at some point in history? :D They also liked tombstones in Latin - there's the real palemonid spirit! :)
I asked you a simple question on how the GDL magnate families called themselves, and you apparently had difficulty with answering.

The individual name is one of the principal rights of every person. The likes of Radziwiłł, Tyszkiewicz, Ogiński, Sapieha, etc. chose to have their names in Polish version.

As this is YOUR history, show some respect to it.

Yet again I ask you - do you have anything else to contribute other than your polonocentric flow of mind? If not - please stop polluting this thread.
I've already contributed, both in terms of my personal views and some nice photos.

Many thanks for your attention. :)
 

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shaman is back
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No, because it's a widely recognised name of that dynasty.
And Jagiello is pretty widely used form as well. However you (rather grudgingly) agree to use one original form yet stick to the Polish version of the derivative... Double standards? ;)

Look, Lithuania has a long and interesting history, which you can often be truly proud of. And nobody will take it away from you.

However, as I said previously, your history doesn't end up with Duke Vytautas and re-appears out of the blue in late 19th century. Within those several centuries the elites of Grand Duchy of Lithuania adopted foreign language & culture, Ruthenian and then Polish. And that you are not able to erase and replace it with an artificial Baltic Lithuanian substitute.
I highlighted your problem. There is no Baltic or Slavonic Lithuanian whatever. There's Lithuania and Lithuanians and we've been around for quite a while.

I asked you a simple question on how the GDL magnate families called themselves, and you apparently had difficulty with answering.

The individual name is one of the principal rights of every person. The likes of Radziwiłł, Tyszkiewicz, Ogiński, Sapieha, etc. chose to have their names in Polish version.

As this is YOUR history, show some respect to it.
What you don't realize is that majority of those families originate from way before the mass polonization of the Lith elites. They were an integral part of the fabrique of the nation and for centuries in Lithuania and among Lithuanians they were known as Radvilos, Sapiegos, Goštautai, Tiškevičiai etc. This is how we called them for the last 500 or so years and we're not changing it.

Speaking of Tiškevičiai - here's one for you: the tombstone of VLADISLAUS TYSZKIEVICIUS in Vilnius Bernardines church. Vladislovas Tiškevičius if to use todays grammar. Tough hah?


by Jan Bulhak 1937
 

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Katsuma, this is not Marijampolė and I am pretty positive about it. Please verify your sources.
I was just checking if you're paying attention ;). Seriously though, good spot. The source states Mariampol, however, upon further verification, it refers to the town of same name in present-day Ukraine.

I've replaced those pics with some additional ones from Druskieniki/Druskininkai.

And Jagiello is pretty widely used form as well. However you (rather grudgingly) agree to use one original form yet stick to the Polish version of the derivative... Double standards? ;)
I'm afraid am not following you here... If you just start over again. :)

I highlighted your problem. There is no Baltic or Slavonic Lithuanian whatever. There's Lithuania and Lithuanians and we've been around for quite a while.
Erm... no. You're making a mistake by drawing a parallel between the old Lithuanians (Litvins/Litwini) and new Lithuanians (Balts), who AFAIK in late GDL times (17-18th c.) were basically referred to as Samogitians.

As I already said a couple of times before (and will be saying more, if needed), the GDL heritage is claimed by three nation states: Lithuania, Belarus & Poland.

What you don't realize is that majority of those families originate from way before the mass polonization of the Lith elites. They were an integral part of the fabrique of the nation and for centuries in Lithuania and among Lithuanians they were known as Radvilos, Sapiegos, Goštautai, Tiškevičiai etc. This is how we called them for the last 500 or so years and we're not changing it.
But before Polonization the official language in GDL had been Ruthenian, and not Lithuanian, whose first written record dates back to 16th century.

How could they have been called Radvila or Tiskevicius then?

Speaking of Tiškevičiai - here's one for you: the tombstone of VLADISLAUS TYSZKIEVICIUS in Vilnius Bernardines church. Vladislovas Tiškevičius if to use todays grammar. Tough hah?

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/2825/11392565.jpg
by Jan Bulhak 1937
Interesting. Can you confirm if the date of death of Mr Tyszkievicius is 1684, and we'll try to locate him in the Tyszkiewicz family genealogical tree.

As you may know, the family is of Ruthenian origin, with the first known ancestor, Kalenik Miszkowicz, being a boyar in Kiev region in 15th century.
 

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I'm afraid am not following you here... If you just start over again. :)
My point is that there are no universal rules for historical names. Everybody agrees that the original name is Lithuanian Jogaila, however when it comes to naming the dynasty - it goes after the Polish version. Why? Nobody knows. It just happened. Oh well. Nevermind.

Erm... no. You're making a mistake by drawing a parallel between the old Lithuanians (Litvins/Litwini) and new Lithuanians (Balts), who AFAIK in late GDL times (17-18th c.) were basically referred to as Samogitians.
...oh dear... another poor soul infected with "litvinizm"....
Here's a quick cure:
Samogitia was separated from the rest of Lithuania only due to a political conjuncture of late XIV and early XV century. Ethnically Samogitians are the same Lithuanians.

Jana Dlugosza kanonika krakowskiego Dziejow polskich ksiag dwanascie, W Krakowie, 1868, t. 3, ks. 9
"...aby ich nie odliczal od swego ksiestwa i Litwinow, z ktorymi jednem byli plomieniem i narodem, tak wspolnoscia; jezyka jako i obyczajow spokrewnionym, a nie oddawal ich pod moc Krzyzakow;... gdy wyraz Zmudz w ich jezyku znaczy ziemie nizsza, dla odroznienia jej od Litewskiej, ktora oba narody wyzsza ziemia nazywaja. "

Vytautas writes to Emperor Sigismund in 1420 (Codex epistolaris Vitoldi. Pars I, Nr.861)
...in terra Samaytarum, (...) que eciam est et semper fuit unum et idem cum terra Lythwaniae, nam unum ydeoma et uni homines. - Samogitia which is and always was one with Lithuania, because the same language and the same people.
Sed quod terra Samaytarum est terra inferior ad terram Lythwanie, ideo Szomoyth vocatur, quod in lythwanico terra inferior interpretatur. Samoyte vero Lythwaniam appelant Auxstote, quod est terra superior respectu terre Samaytarum. Because Samogitia lies lower than Lithuania it's called Žemaite which in Lthuanian means lowland. Samogitians call Lithuania Aukštaite which means highland because higher land than Samogitia.

Jogaila to the papal legate in 1421 (Lites ac Res gestae inter Polonos Ordinemque Cruciferorum. tomus tertius. Posnaniae, 1856)
"Samogitia and Sudovia (...) are an important part of the Lithuanian Principality and belong to the principality;
...
The inhabitants of this land speak Lithuanian. And they do not have any other language than Lithuanian.
...
Samogitia, that is, in Lithuanian - Lithuania lower."


Please memorize one simple fact. Lithuania has 2 main regions: Žemaitija (Samogitia) which means lowland and Aukštaitija which means highland. Both of them together = Lithuania. Historically Aukštaitija became the core of the state thus it was called simply Lithuania.

As I already said a couple of times before (and will be saying more, if needed), the GDL heritage is claimed by three nation states: Lithuania, Belarus & Poland.
Say what you want, but it wan't change the fact that the core of the GDL was the Lithuania Propria and the Lithuanians. Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, Latvia - they have all taken a part in the project and nobody denies that. But it was a Lithuanian project after all. Simple as that.

But before Polonization the official language in GDL had been Ruthenian, and not Lithuanian, whose first written record dates back to 16th century.
If you know the history at least half as much as you claim, you should definitely realize that "official language" did not exist back then. 99% of the folk (just as everywhere in Europe) was illiterate and the dukes used whatever scripts they found available. Your (obviously) most favorite Lith Vytautas has sent letters in German, Latin an Ruthenian.

Interesting. Can you confirm if the date of death of Mr Tyszkievicius is 1684, and we'll try to locate him in the Tyszkiewicz family
What will it change? It's Emanuel Wladislaw Tyszkiewicz Łohojski. Died in 1704.
 

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Say what you want, but it wan't change the fact that the core of the GDL was the Lithuania Propria and the Lithuanians. Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, Latvia - they have all taken a part in the project and nobody denies that. But it was a Lithuanian project after all. Simple as that.
Do you really believe that such a small nation of lithuanian balts has made such a big empire? :lol: God, how you can even think like that? So you suppose that lithuanian balts were the brain of the project, and other nations just keep an eye on your huge borders!

I have no more questions about that, now i know the real truth about "who was the GDoL's boss"... :master:
 

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...oh dear... another poor soul infected with "litvinizm"....
Here's a quick cure:
(...)
And who is/was the first poor soul? Some Belarusian, I suppose. :)

Anyway, here is some piece of information, which might be a cure for you, provided that you are a curable species... ;)

- "Lithuanians in historical meaning" (Polish Wikipedia): http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litwini_w_znaczeniu_historycznym

That article might give you an indication about changes in the national identity of GDL inhabitants and a clue as to why such historic Lithuanians as e.g. Kościuszko, Domeyko, Mickiewicz, Piłsudski, Miłosz, considered themselves Polish and their native lands as an inseparable part of Polish Rzeczpospolita.

In this regard, when Mickiewicz wrote "Litwo, ojczyzno moja..." (Lithuania, my homeland), it was the same as if an American poet living in the state of e.g. Oklahoma would write "Oklahoma, my homeland".

- "Norman Davies: Lithuanians must realize they are not the only heirs to historic Lithuania"

Prominent British historian Norman Davies says that Lithuanians should have a better understanding of their history, seek good relations with neighbors and realize that they are not the only heirs to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
http://www.15min.lt/en/article/cult...e-only-heirs-to-historic-lithuania-528-205256

- "
Lithuanian identity and the riddle of General Lucjan Želigowski" - the previously quoted article by one of the Lithuanian historians (!!)

Želigowski's was an old family coming from Ashmyany (currently part of Belarus), its roots go back to the 16th century. An entry from 1623 in Lithuanian chronicles reads: “Jakob Želigowski from Kimbor estate came with a horse, armour, helmet, and harquebus.”
It is also noteworthy that Pilsudski called himself Lithuanian and was puzzled until the end of his life about what all these peasants and Augustinas Voldemaras (prime minister in the inter-war Republic of Lithuania) had in common with the Lithuanian nation.
By speculating retrospectively and identifying ourselves only with current forms of Lithuanianness, we cross out from our history all cities, crafts, wars. Since if we consider as Lithuanian only things created by Lithuanian-speakers – if we neglect to see identity shifts and changes in its forms – we are nothing more than a folklorized culture of wooden farm implements.
It presented a great dilemma for Želigowski, too, who repeated in many interviews that he was still a Lithuanian. Sure, his saying so was a cover for the true goal and the point of his operation, but it is still true that his words made perfect sense. “I was going to my home, I did not suddenly emerge from nowhere,” Želigowski said.
http://www.15min.lt/en/article/cult...iddle-of-general-lucjan-zeligowski-528-261617

Say what you want, but it wan't change the fact that the core of the GDL was the Lithuania Propria and the Lithuanians. Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, Latvia - they have all taken a part in the project and nobody denies that. But it was a Lithuanian project after all. Simple as that.
Yeah, but the project management failed, and the GDL elites dropped their Lithuanian-Ruthenian culture and got Polonized. :lol:

If you know the history at least half as much as you claim, you should definitely realize that "official language" did not exist back then. 99% of the folk (just as everywhere in Europe) was illiterate and the dukes used whatever scripts they found available. Your (obviously) most favorite Lith Vytautas has sent letters in German, Latin an Ruthenian.
Hey, there's no need for that, i.e. to make allegations about my knowledge of history. I'm a humble amateur, but very keen on learning. ;)

Anyway, we're talking about GDL elites and not any ordinary folk. Therefore, I'm asking you again, if the first written record in Lithuanian language dates back to 16th century, how could the likes of Radziwiłł or Tyszkiewicz have been called Radvila or Tiskevicius then?

BTW, those families did not exist at the time of the Union of Horodło 1413, where GDL nobles were granted equal status with Polish nobility and selected 47 boyars were adopted by Polish families and started using their Polish coats of arms (the one mentioned in the union's document as Rodwił/Rodywił got the Sulima coat of arms, whereas Radziwiłł family held the coat of arms Trąby)...

What will it change? It's Emanuel Wladislaw Tyszkiewicz Łohojski. Died in 1704.
Well, I wanted to compare the paintings & epitaphs of other members of Tyszkiewicz family from the period when Mr Tyszkievicius lived.

No, I don't think it was Emanuel Władysław, as there seems to be no "Emanuel" on the epitaph. Closer to the bottom one can see the date of 1684, but it's not clearly legible...

Can you post the link to a source, where you got the photo from?
 

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Some examples of the classic sacral architecture captured on camera in pre-WW2 Wilno/Vilnius.
____

The Cathedral





Ostrobramska/Ausros Vartu Street, view on St. Therese's Church



Gate of Dawn ("Ostra Brama" in Polish) with the Chapel of Our Lady of the Gate of Dawn





St. Anne's Church in winter season, with the St. Francis & Bernardine Churches in the background



St. Casimir's Church



St. Peter & Paul's Church

 

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Discussion Starter · #79 ·
Thanks for photos, I am waiting when it will stop.
Best idea I think:

- write some names and surnames in Lithuanian and also in Polish and Belarussian which also has own pronouncation. Because this disputes never will end.

- In Vilnius area, which also was part of Poland in 1922-1939 exist possibility write city names firstly in Lithuanian, if Poles want, they just can write in their own pronouncation city name, but firstly need current official name

Thanks for attention.

We have such a common history about noblemans and other persons from Both Nation Republic era, that it don't need to say, that she, he, it is just "mine".
 

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Discussion Starter · #80 ·
Zapyškis church
Full name is St. John Babtist church

Gothic church in current Kaunas district built in 1578 by Naugardukas/Nowogorodek (in current Belarus) voivode Povilas Ivanovičius Sapiega (in pol. Paweł Sapieha, in bel. Павел Іванавіч Сапега) , It is believed that this church is rebuilt old chapel from Vytautas the Great times. Till 1794 Zapyškis was a part of Samogitia diocese. In the beginninig of XVII c. was built small vestry. During 1812 Nepoleon war against Russia, church was damaged by French troops. During WWI German troops dismantle the organ. During interwar period church was restorated. Nemunas river flood very demaged church in 1946. 1953-1959 church was restorated. The façade has a lot of profiled bricks, but these have just three kinds. Architect is uknown, but assumed that church built by local builders.
http://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapyškio_Šv._Jono_Krikštytojo_bažnyčia

Church during soviet times


Lietuvos architektūros istorija. I tomas


wikipedia.com


By rimsenas from miestai.net/forumas


By rimsenas from miestai.net/forumas


By Civis from miestai.net/forumas


http://www.flickriver.com/photos/maritul/


Lietuvos architektūros istorija. I tomas
 
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