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SSLL
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From: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060516.LEADERS16/TPStory/TPNational/Ontario/
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Avoid U.S. health model: Clinton
OLIVER MOORE
The answer to Canada's health-care woes does not lie in the "insane" system in place south of the border, former U.S. president Bill Clinton said last night.

Speaking in Toronto, Mr. Clinton said that reform may be needed in Canada, but he argued forcefully that the U.S. model is a "colossal waste of money" that is "killing" his country competitively.

"It's a good thing, your health care system, with all of its problems," Mr. Clinton told supporters of the inaugural World Leaders Forum, which he co-headlined with Israeli Vice-Premier Shimon Peres.

Mr. Clinton said that he was familiar with the Chaoulli decision of the Supreme Court of Canada, in which the justices ruled that the public system was too slow and struck down a Quebec prohibition on private health insurance. Arguing that the United States had made a mess of health care, he encouraged Canadians to study instead how other countries have tackled these issues.

"Conduct a public set of hearings on every other advanced health-care system and see who solved that problem best," he said. "Surely there's somebody who has figured out how to solve this problem."

Mr. Clinton, who failed in his own attempt to overhaul the U.S. health-care system during his presidency, pointed out that the portion of health costs spent on administration in the United States is nearly twice that of any other industrialized nation. He noted that health costs for American auto makers are up to 15 times their Japanese counterparts, even if all the manufacturing is being done in the United States.

"Don't do anything that will lead to increased administration costs and letting the financing tail wag the health-care dog," he warned.
 

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No doubt we should avoid the US model. The French model is the way to go no doubt. "Private" system but still is open to everyone and is ranked #1 in the world constantly. I always find it funny how oppositions to privatization in Canada never realize that there is a world outside of the US.
 

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Duh! Why would one wish to model their health-care system after the most costly system on earth...especially considering the overal poor health outcomes it's population recieves. Doesn't take a genius to see that high costs + poor outcomes = Terrible system.
 

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^^No doubt. And if it wasn't for that greedy Franklin Roosevelt and his insane number of terms in office I would have had pleasure of voting for that man for the fourth time in 2004. I have no doubt he would still be president...if only...
 

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Dr. Phalange said:
Duh! Why would one wish to model their health-care system after the most costly system on earth...especially considering the overal poor health outcomes it's population recieves. Doesn't take a genius to see that high costs + poor outcomes = Terrible system.
I don't know about that.

Do we spend a bunch. Sure. But I can walk over to a doctor and get an MRI (provided my primary care physician has already OK'd it) tomorrow. I would not have to wait like I would in Canada.

All health systems ration health. I dislike the American system, as health should be a right. But the Canadian system of waiting and waiting, of paying doctors smaller salaries? No thanks.

Besides the only way the Canadian system remains afloat is whenever there is a backlog, you guys send your patients south of the border. ;)
 

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"But I can walk over to a doctor and get an MRI (provided my primary care physician has already OK'd it) tomorrow. I would not have to wait like I would in Canada."



Uh yea....if all health care consisted of was getting MRIs.

And you have to have the money or coverage to do so in the first place, and many people don't. And if I "had" to have an MRI tomorrow, I could also just go pay for one as well (go to the USA and get one). That's assuming I can't get one in a timely fashion in Ontario, which is not necessarily a problem.

You can't take a teeny part of the issue and blow it up into the whole issue. Health care does not revolve around how long it "may" take to get an MRI.

Big picture. Big picture. Not a concept most Americans are capable of grasping...but you might want to make an effort.







KGB
 

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Ain't it great when the man with a userame that worships the former Soviet secret police can be so simply ignored by the function of the "Ignore List?"

:D
 

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Isn't it even better when people like yourself can completely ignore facts, and make up stories totally unrelated instead?

I don't worship secret police....those are just my initials.






KGB
 

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DonQui said:
I don't know about that.

Do we spend a bunch. Sure. But I can walk over to a doctor and get an MRI (provided my primary care physician has already OK'd it) tomorrow. I would not have to wait like I would in Canada.

All health systems ration health. I dislike the American system, as health should be a right. But the Canadian system of waiting and waiting, of paying doctors smaller salaries? No thanks.

Besides the only way the Canadian system remains afloat is whenever there is a backlog, you guys send your patients south of the border. ;)
And if you happen to have Blue Cross. If not, then you are screwed, and you
can keep on walking forever. Not everyone is comfy and middle class, are they?
 

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DonQui said:
I don't know about that.

Do we spend a bunch. Sure. But I can walk over to a doctor and get an MRI (provided my primary care physician has already OK'd it) tomorrow. I would not have to wait like I would in Canada.
I have had horrible headaches in the past few months which scared the bejesus out of me (actually still do as they come out of nowhere).

Nonethless:

Time to see a neurologist: 1 week -- CT Scan ordered
Time to get the CT head scan after the neurologist: 3 days

MRIs take longer, true, but hardly an eternity.


DonQui said:
All health systems ration health. I dislike the American system, as health should be a right. But the Canadian system of waiting and waiting, of paying doctors smaller salaries? No thanks.
The waiting times in the Canadian system tend to be much ado about nothing... Not always of course, but it is hardly a disaster. Is there room for improvement? Yes. Nonetheless, the US model is not the one to emulate. Considering the amount of money spent, there is very little return... Canada is not the ideal country in this respect either, but still better.

I don't understand why limiting doctors' salaries is unreasonable, either. They're hardly poor--still the single best paid profession in the country. The artificial shortage of doctors keeps the salaries quite high in fact.

DonQui said:
Besides the only way the Canadian system remains afloat is whenever there is a backlog, you guys send your patients south of the border. ;)
True, actually.... Which is why there's room for improvement. There's no sense in doing this, and letting the money go the US. There's some room for private sector releif in Canada, as long as it's thought out well.
 

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"The waiting times in the Canadian system tend to be much ado about nothing... Not always of course, but it is hardly a disaster."


It's also a lot easier to fix. If waiting times for specific things like MRIs gets to be a problem, then when people bitch enough about it, more MRI's becomes a priority.

And remember, when we talk about waiting times in Canada, we are talking about EVERYBODY. When you talk about waiting times in the USA, you are talking about only those with decent coverage...all those with poor or no coverage wait a hell of a lot longer.

Even when you do have insurance, you hesitate when using it, as things like HMOs and deductables don't give you the same advantage as the Cdn system. Americans are not very healthy because of this...preventative health care is key to being healthy, and Americans tend to not go to the doctor until it's unavoidable. This is especially bad for children.

Needless to say, this is unbelievably worse for the millions of Americans with little or no insurance.

The Cdn system may be a bit of a problem in the opposite direction, as you can go to any health practitioner, as often as you like, and you never see a bill....in fact, we generally have no clue what anything costs. The health practitioner sends the bill directly to OHIP or whatever. If people got a copy of the bill, and saw how much it costs, they might not abuse it so much.

I see the American system a lot like our dental system (not covered by OHIP).







KGB
 

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Well I don't know much about the technical aspect, but awesome to see Clinton say that.

Sad to see the yanks making business out of almost anything: health, 9/11, very sad.

Hope the other countries keep their universal free healthcare and just refine it a bit.
 

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we need a head doctor with real power in each hospital .
Ive been to the hospital here in Kamloops , and watch as three doctors stood around for over an hour talking GOLF while the list grows longer . Same in Edmonton , I watch as someone died in front of me at the Royal Alex, and no one did anything.
 

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^^Hey that would be a good idea....We also need more doctors, there is a shortage of doctors in the GTA area, maybe if Canada accepted foreign degrees in medicine and only made foreign doctors take a profeciency test in medicine *which any qualified doctor would pass* :cheers:
 

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DonQui said:
I don't know about that.
You don't know about what?

Look up the data on any comprehensive objective health-care ranking system, and the US always ranks quite poorly....the results are even more concerning when one considers the enormous cost of the system.


DonQui said:
Do we spend a bunch. Sure. But I can walk over to a doctor and get an MRI (provided my primary care physician has already OK'd it) tomorrow. I would not have to wait like I would in Canada.
Well, luckily for you, you can afford to shovel out anywhere from $800 to $3000 for an MRI. Many many people cannot (or do not have adequate coverage). I guess that is their tough luck, huh?

MRI wait times are a concern here. However, I would not consider most wait times unreasonable.

Besides, as has already been mentioned, MRI wait times are merely one small aspect of a health care systems overall functioning.

DonQui said:
All health systems ration health. I dislike the American system, as health should be a right. But the Canadian system of waiting and waiting, of paying doctors smaller salaries? No thanks.
Yea, us poor doctors are truly suffering here in Canada...I can barely afford to feed my family. LOL!

DonQui said:
Besides the only way the Canadian system remains afloat is whenever there is a backlog, you guys send your patients south of the border. ;)
The entire nation's population is covered...backlogs result. Excluding the underprivileged segment of the population would certainly solve that problem. I suppose rich people are better people, and deserve better care anyway, right?

Besides, don't kid yourself- one segment of the US population will not see a backlog or major wait times, another large segment will see far longer wait-times than anyone in Canada ever would.
 
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