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Converting the TTC track width to Standard guage

6537 Views 16 Replies 7 Participants Last post by  Myrtonos
Here I go out on a limb...

I know, I know, the costs would be horrendous.

Realistically, when they rebuild track sections in the future, would there be much more cost to adding another rail so that eventually, they could convert/buy trains that only are standard gauge? Then they could use any train in Canada on any of the lines much more easier.

I know we are likely talking in the Billions, or possibly the trillions, but, ...

... wouldn't it eventually recoup those costs back due to being able to run the trains on mainline tracks for delivery? Or having lower construction costs of the rail equipment needed for the lines?

I do know why they didn't at first, but now a days, that wouldn't happen. Would it?
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absolutely not, you are looking at a few million extra every 30 years for new vehicle orders being saved for a $20-30 billion rebuild of the existing network.

Never mind the hellhole it would create as the entire streetcar network and most of the streets downtown shut down for several months as every single streetcar track in the city is ripped up and replaced, then tested using new streetcars. it is in no way worth it.
I am not saying to do all the lines. What I am saying is that when a particular line is up for upgrades, upgrade it then.

As I understand it, the Crosstown is going to be Standard, and the SRT is standard.
yes, but due to the inter-connectivity of the streetcar network you would need to do the entire thing at once.
I am not saying to do all the lines. What I am saying is that when a particular line is up for upgrades, upgrade it then.
There are 3 major customizations in downtown LRTs that incur cost.

1) Horizontal curve requirement; numerous 90 degree right hand turns such as at Carlton and Parliament, Gerrard and Coxwell, Gerrard and Parliament, Main and Gerrard, Broadview and King, and a large number of curves used for diversions around problems.

Short of demolishing the buildings to change the layout of the streets or tunnelling, this cannot be changed.

Standard LRT curves would require tracks laid through many buildings.


2) Vertical curve requirement (slope into/out of Bay Street portal and Spadina Station). $1B to fix those.


3) Power boost. Due to the slopes at the portals and on some streets like Bathurst, TTC requires vehicles have significantly more power than standard. I suppose you could regrade Bathurst between Bloor and St. Clair.



Wheel width is something the TTC can change in a day on their own with their own maintenance crew. Making this track change without removing the above limitations (particularly #1) would result in $0 in savings during LRT orders.


In addition to the track on the route, most of which is embedded in a base meant to last until 2100, you need to convert storage yards and maintenance facilities for the vehicles for that route.

Again, if you make the wheel width standard, TTC will continue to be ordering custom vehicles for the downtown network due to street geometry requirements.
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So, there are reasons why it is still used, not just because of the old reason of not allowing mainline trains to run the city streets?

I did not realize that.
What is TTC gauge now?
So, there are reasons why it is still used, not just because of the old reason of not allowing mainline trains to run the city streets?
No, that is the only reason.

It sticks because there is a substantial cost to change and virtually no cost savings to be gained.

It's equivalent to gutting your house to replace the old perfectly good rough-sawn 2x4's with the modern smoothed 1-1/2"x3-1/2" boards.
Also the TTC has the sharpest turning radius's on any type of LRT in the world

It also has some of the steepest inclines in the World.

If you were to increase the track gauage you wouldn't be able to rebuild a large number of streetcar turns.

Also ... buildings like Union Station loop are designed for the Streetcar ... it would be hundreds of millions to expand that loop alone.
What I am learning is that there is a valid reason to keep the rails at the gauge. Ignoring monetary reasons, It seems that the routes themselves seem to be a bigger issue.
From Wikipedia (TTC page):

Track gauge

The tracks of Toronto's streetcars and subways are built to the unique track gauge of 4 ft 10 7⁄8 in (1,495 mm), 2 3⁄8 in (60 mm) wider than the usual standard gauge of 1,435 mm (4 ft 8 1⁄2 in), which the Scarborough RT uses.[27] According to Steve Munro, an expert on the history of Toronto area transit, TTC gauge is "English carriage gauge".
That the gauge of the said railways shall be such that the ordinary vehicles now in use may travel on the said tracks, and that it shall and may be lawful to and for all and every person and persons whatsoever to travel upon and use the said tracks with their vehicles loaded or empty, when and so often as they may please, provided they do not impede or interfere with the cars of the party of the second part (Toronto Street Railway), running thereon, and subject at all times to the right of the said party of the second part, his executors, and administrators and assigns to keep the said tracks with his and their cars, when meeting or overtaking any other vehicle thereon.[28]

As wagons were normally built at standard gauge, the streetcar rails were selected to be slightly wider, allowing the wagons to ride on the inside sections of the rail, and the streetcars on the outside. The Williams Omnibus Bus Line changed the gauge of their buses in 1861 to fit this gauge. At the time, track for horsecars was not our modern 'T' rail, but wide and flat, with a raised section on the outside of the rail.

According to the TTC, the City of Toronto feared that the street railway franchise operator, first in 1861, the Toronto Street Railway, then in 1891, the Toronto Railway Company, and in 1921, the TTC, would allow the operation of steam locomotives and freight trains through city streets, as was common practice in Hamilton, Ontario (until the 1950s) and in many US cities, such as New York City and Syracuse, New York.[27]
Standard gauge rails in the streets would have allowed this, but steam railway equipment could not follow the abrupt curves in the streetcar network. Opposition to freight operation in city streets precluded interchange even with adjacent radial lines even after the lines changed to TTC gauge. Electric railway freight cars could negotiate street curves, but freight operations to downtown were still not allowed until the final few years of radial operation by the TTC.

The unique gauge has remained to this day since converting all tracks and vehicles would be expensive and would lack any real benefit anyway. Some proposals for the city's subway system involved using streetcars in the tunnels, possibly having some routes run partially in tunnels and partially on city streets, so the same gauge was used, but the idea was ultimately dropped in the case of dedicated rapid-transit trains. The use of standard-gauge tracks on the Scarborough RT makes it impossible for there to be any track connection between it and the other lines, and so when RT vehicles need anything more than basic service (which is carried out in the RT's own McCowan Yard), they are carried by truck to the Greenwood subway yards.

The proposed Eglinton Crosstown LRT line will be constructed to standard gauge. As the project is receiving a large part of its funding from Metrolinx, the Ontario provincial transit authority, it wants to ensure a degree of commonality with any other proposed tram/LRT projects within Ontario to ensure a better price for purchasing vehicles.
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From Wikipedia (TTC page):

I have read the actual article.



The proposed Eglinton Crosstown LRT line will be constructed to standard gauge. As the project is receiving a large part of its funding from Metrolinx, the Ontario provincial transit authority, it wants to ensure a degree of commonality with any other proposed tram/LRT projects within Ontario to ensure a better price for purchasing vehicles.
See.... there is the point I am getting at. Commonality and Better Price.

I hope all new Streetcar lines are built to Standard Gauge.
If they aren't planned to be connected to the main network, they will be standard gauge.
... it wants to ensure a degree of commonality with any other proposed tram/LRT projects within Ontario to ensure a better price for purchasing vehicles.
The better price should come with a disclaimer.

TTC won't get a better price as TTC orders are large enough to reach factory saturation for prolonged period of time. Legacy cars are more expensive because they are far more capable than a standard LRV, not because it's a special design with a small run (it's not a small run).

The agencies which are NOT TTC can ride on a TTC order and get a better price on their orders. Meeting standard specs is good to do, but is primarily for the benefit of Metrolinx.

You can see this with current combined bus orders. The idea was that combining orders would make buses cheaper; TTC found the extra layer of logistics was actually going to increase the total cost a bit but nearly every other municipality around Ontario has seen a price reduction.
I was always under the impression that adjusting the gauge for Toronto was a relatively easy modification. The extra requirements of being able to manage the tight turn radii and handle the steep inclines are the main driving factors toward the cost of specialization.

If it weren't for those factors you could buy an off-the-shelf model and they could easily be modified in the car houses if the manufacturer couldn't. It's a difference of 60 milimetres/6cm between the two gauges.
I was always under the impression that adjusting the gauge for Toronto was a relatively easy modification. The extra requirements of being able to manage the tight turn radii and handle the steep inclines are the main driving factors toward the cost of specialization.

If it weren't for those factors you could buy an off-the-shelf model and they could easily be modified in the car houses if the manufacturer couldn't. It's a difference of 60 milimetres/6cm between the two gauges.


Yes, the LRT's in europe can't make our hills and turns

No cheap modifications will ever fix that
I was always under the impression that adjusting the gauge for Toronto was a relatively easy modification. The extra requirements of being able to manage the tight turn radii and handle the steep inclines are the main driving factors toward the cost of specialization.
The T.T.C gauge differs from standard by about the width of the railhead. Paradoxically, converting to a gauge differing by more than the width of the rails is easier than converting between gauges differing by less than the width of the railhead. Does anyone here know why?
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