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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So the much needed electrification of routes out of Manchester will after all take place, despite the Spending Review, though there is some anger that the time for the work has been extended so that it won't be finished until 2016 at the earliest.

More details here:

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/transport/public_transport/s/1375312_trains_to_get_more_carriages_in_rail_boost
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2010/11/25/liverpool-manchester-railway-electrification-to-finish-by-2016-three-years-late-100252-27715777/
http://www.madeinpreston.co.uk/wp/2009/12/14/manchester-preston-blackpool-electrification/

There's also a generic SSC Rail Electrification thread here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1016189&highlight=electrification

But with both Crossrail and Thameslink now fully committed to, what do forummers think about the balance of where rail investment money is going?

Should the North West be counting its blessings to get any money at all?
:cheers:

Or is infrastructure investment still too heavily skewed to the South East?
:bash:

And what's happening with that proposed "Northern Hub" at Piccadilly?
:nuts:
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
From DoT website today:

Electrification


9. On the Great Western Main Line, the Government is confirming today that the lines between London and Didcot, Oxford and Newbury will be electrified. In the North West, the routes between Liverpool, Manchester, Preston and Blackpool will be electrified. In more detail, that will include:

· Liverpool to Manchester via Newton-le-Willows

· Huyton to Wigan

· Preston to Blackpool

· Manchester to Preston
Pretty handy when it's done!
 

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And what's happening with that proposed "Northern Hub" at Piccadilly?
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2010-11-11a.23464.h

Network Rail is developing the Northern Hub plans and will complete the next stage in spring 2011. We then expect Network Rail to include the Northern Hub in its initial strategic business plan.

This will enable us to consider in 2012 whether a Northern Hub scheme can be funded and what progress can be made on the project during the next Network Rail control period (2014-15 to 2019-20).
 

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Better than nothing, IMO.

Most travel by heavy rail is skewed towards London & South East, so obviously spend the money where it has most benefit.

We will see the benefits starting 2013, when Manchester - Scotland services convert to newbuild EMU traction and run fast Wigan - Manchester.

Portion working could be introduced, making better use of existing capacity.

Build the fourth platform at MIA, but build it with enough length to allow stock to work in multiple.

Instead of having 3tph (of the 5tph) shuttling between Manchester and Leeds, run them as 1tph, split at Leeds/York to diverge to other destinations.

Scarborough and Hull could see direct services to Manchester Airport restored.

Longer trains = more seats = less dwell time = better performance/punctuality.

Metrolink tram-train to Marple will also relieve Ashburys East Junction.
 

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Does anyone have a map showing all the railway lines in Greater Manchester geographically - and shows which lines are electrified and which are about to become electrified under these plans?

It would be greatly appreciated!
 

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Heres an older one, scatch off from this the Midlands Main Line and electrification of the Great Western west of Oxford turning.

 

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Cheers Watcher. Wow you realise what a pathetically low amount of G. Manchester's network is electrified. I know some of it got transferred to Metrolink in 1992, but even so.
 

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Don't forget the loss of Holcombe Brook - Bury (3500v overhead DC, then 1200v third-rail DC), and loss of Woodhead line from Hadfield to Sheffield Victoria/Wath-upon-Dearne, plus various bits around Gorton, Reddish, Ashton, too!
 

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The rump of the Woodhead route electrified between Piccadilly and Hadfield/Glossop is missing off that map - as for Ashton, you can still see old Overhead Gantries near Ikea and also in Dukinfield - a last legacy of the 1500VDC system...
 

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Assuming current service patterns, this scheme would allow the following services to be electrified:

Liverpool Lime St - Manchester Airport (via Newton-le-Willows)
Liverpool Lime St - Manchester Victoria
Liverpool Lime St - Warrington Bank Quay (not the extensions to Ellesmere Port though)
Liverpool Lime St - Wigan North Western/Preston/Blackpool

Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh
Manchester Airport - Blackpool North

Hazel Grove - Preston

London Euston - Blackpool North

--

Bits that would be diesel under the wires include North Wales services, fast services between Liverpool and Manchester that continue to Yorkshire and East Midlands destinations, Manchester to Southport, Blackburn, Barrow and Lake District services. One would imagine that Buxton services would terminate at Piccadilly once again instead of continuing through to Blackpool North.

Modern Railways magazine suggests that electrification of Crewe-Chester and Oxenholme-Windermere would be relatively simple add-ons that could make better utilisation of electric rolling stock.
 

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Better than nothing, IMO.

Most travel by heavy rail is skewed towards London & South East, so obviously spend the money where it has most benefit.
I think I’d take issue with that .. the reason more people travel by train in London is because they have more bloody trains !!
Manchester train passenger numbers are lower not because fewer people want to use the train, but because we have a miserable little fleet of hand-me-down old bangers that are not fit for use anywhere else.
Spending the money in the southeast will only serve to increase that gap and perpetuate the cycle.
 

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agreed SOMtastic - went into Manchester from Romiley (and return) on saturday - both journeys were an absolute nightmare on a crappy old two coach Pacer bus-train - totally rammed plus standing - no chance to pay in either direction either due to this ...
 

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Hence why Metrolink to Marple is the solution, rather than just 'wiring up'.

There is no point buying heavy, well specced 100mph rolling stock for suburban routes with stations 2 minutes apart, if you don't have the frequency, ticketing and accessibility/city-centre penetration.

Otherwise, like South London heavy suburban rail, as in Manchester, it will be carrying virtually 'fresh air' off-peak.

Outside the peaks 323s (Glossop/Hadfield route) are a massive waste of over capacity that could be put to better use elsewhere.
 

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Outside the peaks 323s (Glossop/Hadfield route) are a massive waste of over capacity that could be put to better use elsewhere.
I suppose by implication you’re saying that they are not a massive waste during peak times ?? That being the case - where would you propose deploying off peak ? - given that everywhere else is likely to have similar demand periods.
In other words I don’t think you can escape the fact that trains or any other transport for that matter are likely to carry “fresh air” about off-peak.... Unless you can somehow bolt on capacity quickly and easily as and when required.
But that sounds like a ball-ache to me, and it would probably be cheaper to simply run big semi-empty trains, rather than faff about... Depends on what the cost of running empty carriages is I guess ... more power obviously, and maintenance contracts .. are they based on mileage or simply time ? insurance ??
That needs to be off set against storage areas .. ie sidings .. and the staff required to hook up, prepare, and disconnect the extra bits, extra manoeuvring traffic to/from sidings and so on.
In other words - with my extremely limited knowledge of the vagaries of the rail industry - it seems far from clear cut as to whether any significant cost benefits can be gained through dynamic capacity management.

Granted - the facilities in this part of the world take inadequate to a whole new level ... Todmorden station doesn’t even have a clock FFS - let alone a ticket machine, or electronic displays. and Victoria is nothing short of a national embarrassment.. but that doesn’t prohibit substantially more rolling stock - shabby or other wise. Literally anything would be an improvement. Pretty much every morning, there’s no point my train even stopping at the 3 stations after Rochdale as no-one can get on.
More passengers = more revenue and more footfall in the stations = command of higher retail rental = improvements to stations = more dwel time = more revenue = more improvements and so-on. Add more capacity and it becomes a virtuous cycle.

Simply chucking more money at the south on the grounds that there are more train users seems - well - a bit daft.. It’s like chucking more money at successful schools on the grounds that they attract more pupils !
 

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Granted - the facilities in this part of the world take inadequate to a whole new level ... Todmorden station doesn’t even have a clock FFS - let alone a ticket machine, or electronic displays...
Eccles is just as bad. No displays or clock. It has some bus shelters, some lights and some planters done by the 'Friends' of the station. Oh and a tiny portakabin barely open half the day selling tickets, which I believe elevates it to a status higher than Patricroft.... will these stations get upgraded when the 'modern age' with its electrickery come along?

On the other hand, where my Dad lives darn sarf in a town not to disimilar in size to Eccles it has three platforms, proper canopies, a ticket office with 3 windows plus 2 ticket machines, waiting rooms and toilets on both platforms, all sorts of electronic displays, a newsagent and a taxi office! Oh and modern (well approx 15 years old, so modern by Northern standard) EMUs running 4 times an hour to London (3 fast, 1 slow stopping). Its busy service off peak, absolutley rammed in the rush hour. While on his last visit my dad loved Manchester, the :banana:, Salford Quay, he couldn't get over how SHIT the trains were....
 

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I suppose by implication you’re saying that they are not a massive waste during peak times ?? That being the case - where would you propose deploying off peak ? - given that everywhere else is likely to have similar demand periods.
I hope I'm not stepping on Link's toes here, but I read it as suggesting that converting the Hadfield route to a light metro/LRT configuration (with for argument's sake similar peak capacity) would lead to a growth in off peak ridership through increased frequency, better penetration into the CBD, etc.

Best regards,
Slip
 

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Spot on, Slip.

Recent example is the East London Line (especially the section between Croydon and New Cross).

I'm all for the 'sparks effect', but look at the previous wiring up of the Hazel Grove route in the early 1980s (paid for by the GMC), with the intention of going to Buxton.

Massive capacity, 3 trains per hour, integrated buses when it opened. 20+ years later, they get 2 small diesel trains per hour, and one electric train per day (1922 ex-Picc). Great use of investment, eh?

Why? Bad railway management and DfT meddling.
 

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... Todmorden station doesn’t even have a clock FFS - let alone a ticket machine, or electronic displays.
I’ve never quoted myself before !!

... As I live and breath .. Northern Rail have dipped their very short arms into their very deep pockets and splashed out on a ticket machine for Todmorden !!! Whatever next !
 
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