[Nathan Dawz]

Does anyone have a map showing all the railway lines in Greater Manchester geographically - and shows which lines are electrified and which are about to become electrified under these plans?

It would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Nathan Dawz]

Cheers Watcher. Wow you realise what a pathetically low amount of G. Manchester's network is electrified. I know some of it got transferred to Metrolink in 1992, but even so.

 

[Nathan Dawz]

Remember someone a while back put up a map showing the current electrified lines in Greater Manchester and the ones now confirmed (think it might have been Voldy?).

Could do with an update anyway, whoever made it?!

 

[Nathan Dawz]

Just needs a little line deftly added in for the Ordsall Curve

 

[Nathan Dawz]

When will EMUs run the route between Piccadilly and Edinburgh/Glasgow? Or are they running already?

 

[Nathan Dawz]

30 December allegedly.

Cheers!

Is there expected to be a reduction in journey time? Looking at thetrainline.com, it currently takes approx 3h20 to get to either Edinburgh or Glasgow from Piccadilly without stopping.

I can't see any difference after the 30th Dec but I guess the timetable hasn't been amended yet.

 

[Nathan Dawz]

Remember that when Beeching made his proposals the plan was to cut back the non-profitable parts of the network and modernise / electrify the main lines. The result was that the cutbacks were made, but the widespread rollout of electrification wasn't. Typical Britain.:|

 

[Nathan Dawz]

The problem is the idea that the 319s were not good enough for the south is a complete fabrication. All that happened was the 319s were being released for cascade to where ever. Let's not forget the original plan for the 319s were Great Western, which is in the south (west) in far greater numbers than Northern was proposed to. It's just a convenient idea that the north is being insulted by getting the 319s when the south was proposed to get more. Also London was to keep 22x 319s to run services in South London so the myth is well and truely busted that they are unwanted in the South, just those who expect new trains in the current situation twisted the truth to suit the chip on thier shoulder.

What I do agree with its the 319s should have a full refurbishment including air con in the next franchise. Let's not forget the fought for upgrades for the 319s before they came into service may have now affected the long term refurbishment with the agreed 14x 319s getting the treatment may now not see the full upgrade as new bidders may leave them to last or worst still believe the work done so far is enough.

Are you from London? Every time this debate crops up and someone makes the legitimate point of how the North gets crumbs off London's table, you always accuse them of having a 'chip on their shoulder'.

If you don't think that the South East gets a better deal than the North you either don't follow these things closely or you've got your own agenda to push.

 

[Nathan Dawz]

I've spent 2/3rds of my life on the north west. Funny how the South and South East are regularly confused. Distorting and manipulating the truth to try and prove a point is too regularly on many forums and calling it out is seen as anti north. Why is that? Don't like being called out on it? (not you personally, that was a general statement).

The only ones distorting the truth are those who pretend the North gets a fair deal.

Why?
What would new trains give that the class 319s dont?
Is the 319 not an upgrade from the 15x DMUs?

Are we supposed to be grateful?

If the reality matched with the 'Northern Powerhouse' rhetoric, then you could bet we would be getting new trains.

 

[Nathan Dawz]

It wouldnt have mattered if they were new trains would it, something would have been wrong..
To slow, the wrong colours or just the wheels werent round enough.

I don't understand why you think there's something wrong with wanting quality public transport in the North.

Your attitude seems to be that we should just settle for whatever Whitehall offers us and be grateful for it.

Doesn't really match with the 'Northern Powerhouse' rhetoric does it?

 

[Nathan Dawz]

McLoughlin confirms that TP electrification won't be completed on schedule but also says more route upgrades will be required to meet traffic levels.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...-and-transpennine-electrification-are-delayed

McLoughlin now saying it won't be done until the early 2020s? hno:

How on earth can it take so long to electrify a relatively short piece of track. Other major European countries must look at us in bewilderment at how slow the pace of development is.

And to think that report aimed for every rail line in the North to be electrified by 2040! I wouldn't even bet on 2140.

 

[Nathan Dawz]

Nathan: I forgot to say, the gradual let-down is usually accompanied by some other jam-tomorrow promise that was never going to happen. It's a tried and trusted technique that keeps the Northern numpties quiet whilst the metropolitan elite spend their taxes on world-city London.

Sadly, you are correct.

We're decades away from something like HS3. It's just a useful way for the government to avoid questions on why improvements to existing lines in the North are taking so long.

 

[Nathan Dawz]

There's nothing wrong with the thread being here. This is the Greater Manchester transport sub-forum, and electrification within Greater Manchester is a valid topic.

 

[Nathan Dawz]

The reality of Osborne's Northern Powerhouse.

TransPennine rail electrification plans delayed

The planned electrification of the TransPennine Express railway line between Manchester and York has been delayed, with no set completion date.

Jonathan Reynolds, Labour MP for Stalybridge and Hyde, had asked the government for an update on the plans.

The project, electrifying the route which connects Manchester, Leeds and York, was announced in November 2011.

Transport Minister Andrew Jones said Network Rail had found "more work" was needed than originally proposed.

Work would be delayed and a completion date could not yet be set, he added.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-33066581

 

[Nathan Dawz]

Yes it will be needed for HS3.
So why spend the money on trainsets now when it will need to be spent all over again on HS3 trains.?

HS3 isn't something that's going to happen overnight. It's many, many years away (if it ever happens) and waiting that long for the main line between Manchester and Leeds to be electrified is ridiculous.

In any case, I doubt HS3 will completely incorporate the Huddersfield line, so it will still need to be electrified.

 

[Nathan Dawz]

You will get the upgrades but not soon, because there is no cash to spend on electric trainsets to run over the route, and it isnt worth spending all that money of new trainsets when people will put up with what they have got for the foreseeable

Electrification doesn't necessarily mean brand new trainsets will come with it. And even if it did, new electric trains can eventually be moved around to other lines if required.

HS3 is many years away (if ever) and we don't know what route it will follow. Given this is the main line connecting the North's two largest cities, I don't think there's much case for saying the investment isn't worth it.

 

[Nathan Dawz]

Once the wires go up what will use them then?

Electric trains. Doesn't necessarily mean they'll be new (although they should be). Older electric trains that are being replaced elsewhere on the network can get cascaded down.

 

[Nathan Dawz]

No, never going to happen.
Which is why they have put it off to fall in line with HS3

I don't think you have a clue. Nobody's even mentioned that it's going to fall in line with HS3, and no-one knows what proposed route HS3 is going to take.

Electrification of the main line between Manchester and Leeds will need to happen regardless of whether HS3 happens or not.

Either way its built WacherZero it all amounts to the same thing, which is "(i.e. it would be pointless to build the capacity for 6 services per hour with increased speeds if only a short time later two of them no longer used the line)"

It's not an either-or situation. The Electrification Task Force recently published a strategy to electrify every main line in the North, which the DfT backs. How realistic this is is another matter, but nonetheless there is recognition that electrification needs to be rolled out across the North. HS3 doesn't have any bearing on that.

 

[Nathan Dawz]

No I know you dont think I do. because you told me the reason they cant give a date for its electrification and I doubt you even realised it at the time.

"and no-one knows what proposed route HS3 is going to take."

Why would you spend millions upgrading a route now, today when in a few years time the HS3 route could follow a different alignment and make all those millions of pounds you spent on wires worth less.

Why would electrification of the Huddersfield line be worthless after HS3? Do you honestly think there's only ever going to be one electrified line crossing the Pennines?

Nobody in any official capacity has said that the Huddersfield line shouldn't be electrified or won't be electrified, what they're saying is that it will be delayed. Regardless of what happens with HS3, this line is still going to get electrified eventually.

 

[Nathan Dawz]

Amazing how all the projects in the South are still going ahead, whilst it's only projects in the North and East Midlands get cancelled.

No doubt the 'usual suspects' will be along shortly to insist that the North still gets a fair deal compared to the South. Yeh, right. 'Northern Powerhouse' my arse! :|