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1076561 Views 4994 Replies 255 Participants Last post by  dpjones1978
So the much needed electrification of routes out of Manchester will after all take place, despite the Spending Review, though there is some anger that the time for the work has been extended so that it won't be finished until 2016 at the earliest.

More details here:

There's also a generic SSC Rail Electrification thread here:

But with both Crossrail and Thameslink now fully committed to, what do forummers think about the balance of where rail investment money is going?

Should the North West be counting its blessings to get any money at all?

Or is infrastructure investment still too heavily skewed to the South East?

And what's happening with that proposed "Northern Hub" at Piccadilly?
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Hadfield/Glossop line shouldnt be coloured.
Is it? never been that way.

Edit: you made me check, it is but it doesnt appear as such on many NR electrification maps.

Was that already part of the Northern Hub? As I understand it what the Governments done is basically add TPE North electrification to the Northern Hub programme with the electrification taking place over the next three years. This is different to the Lancashire Triangle Electification which is seperate from the Northern Hub programme.
Infrastructure Bonds I reckon they will use, been used a lot abroad. They issue a bond secured on the asset which the pension company buys, part of the interest/repayment is made back from squeezing the asset directly (tolls, fares, etc) the rest will be made by the Government putting in some sweeteners directly to act as rewards over and above the normal asset repayment and provide the incentive to buy. The net effect is the Government pays a small amount of extra interest but not the repayment and normal interest which gives near infinite Benefit-cost ratio's on paper, hiding the debt off the books.
As I said, secured on the asset not guarenteed by Government, Government then only in the hook for the interest above that repayed by the asset itself and not appearing on the balance sheet as its not a government liability. This is their idea of PFI reform. The Government sees the fundamental problem with PFI being that the revenue cost of an asset is included as debt and that the companies operating PFI were borrowing at a high cost after winning the contract to operate them. The Government is thinking of changing the rules so that a PFI operator must have the cash upfront and the percentage of that cash that is borrowed would be capped. This is why their targeting pension funds as they are the only ones that would have cash upfront and not have to borrow.
The thing is this £5bn they released for 'shovel ready' projects stipulates that they must be completed within three years putting it in the 2014/15 timeframe of final project spend and 2015/16 opening, ive also seen some sources which suggested it would be finished before the Bolton electrification and TPE suggesting rolling stock needs to be available from 2014 (just after their franchise ends) for the route with them already having planned the service alterations. How they could possibly do it so fast I have no idea.
What they were planning was something like moving 3 of the 6 tph over to electrification and redirecting the Huddersfield service so you had to change.
Has been mentioned before, seems to have been various degrees proposed from having the PTE's jointly tender the franchise to the creation of mini-tocs where instead of tendering the operation of a single routes or services outside the existing franchise on a individual basis they would be able to tender all of the extra services together desired beyond Dft specification in the county as one mini franchise.
An electric train accelerates faster and brakes faster than a diesel train as it doesnt have to carry its own fuel. While the top speed may be the same if you reach it in 3 minutes on an electric train and 6 minutes on a diesel your saving in the region of a minute and half from your total journey time each time you leave a station. (example figures)
Ive not been up close to check but from a distance it appears they did some work on Wigan NW wires during the Christmas period, I saw pickers up and it appears the support columns have been strengthened and/or beefier insulators and tension wires installed.
I cant see the benefit beyond what Deansgate provides, any other station would slow down services anyway, at least at Deansgate its a crawl into the city anyway.
Yeah, for Media City fastest route to Liverpool would probably be Eccles. Might be a faster service calling at Eccles than the current all stations stopper post electrification.
On Chat Moss at least they are raising line speed in a few areas.
And yeah after the tight turns and close stops of the quays its pretty much 30mph straight to eccles.
Would have to be finished about 3 months earlier than December for driver training and testing.
I dont think the delay will affect them that much, last I heard Bombardier had already started sourcing for them before financial close.
Sorry Siemens, though they have used Bombardier bogies in their trains before :)
I was more worried about the chance of conduction, I guess it will be a short neutral stretch.
I cant remember if Watcherzero posted already but apparently the order for the new class 350s to run between Piccadilly and Scotland has now been placed.

10 4 car sets for TPE along with 10 more for London Midland for delivery in 2013. Surprisingly I cant seem to see it on the Siemens website or anywhere else for that matter! Sure it will all come out in the wash eventually.

Least it means something will be able to use the wires to Newton le Willows from next year :)
Far as I know, no press releases yet only Captain Deltic twittering contract completion.
Theres been no investment because Northern was franchised on a No Growth basis, not expected passenger numbers to increase so no money available from Government or incentive for the private company to invest (90% of extra revenues above target go back to Government). In reality passenger numbers have increased greatly, and while as a heavily subsidised service there wont be much money for investment in the next franchise I do believe we will see a requirement for circa 200 extra carriages and the replacement of Pacers and Class 150's by 2020.
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