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I know there are other L1 threads but I just want to find out what all those who have been following the scheme and the gossip around town think specifically as to whether this scheme will lead to the desired expansion of the retail district, or will it simply lead to it all shifting down to L1, leaving Church St etc as fragile as London Rd?
 

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I think a lot of the retailers are holding back and waiting to see what impact this will have before dipping their toe into the Liverpool waters.

If this is a success I can see new brands being interested in coming to town.
 

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The problem with London Road is that it is quite eccentric from the centre and, unless or until Line 1 of Merseytram is installed, not much can be done about that. I suspect that it was successful in the past because of the density of population in the local area and the old bus routes that would have linked it to the main shopping centre.

Church Street / Lord Street is such a central axis to the city centre that it is almost impossible to avoid, even if your intended destination is Liverpool One. There are Lime Street and Central Stations at one end and James Street at the other whilst other attractions such as Queen Square the Met Quarter and Victoria Street are on the opposite side of the axis from Liverpool 1.

There is so much linkage between the axis and Liverpool One that there is little demarcation between them. (As you walk down Church Street / Lord Street, you have links into L1 via Hanover Street, Church Alley, Paradise Street, South John Street, Derby Square and the Strand). So I think the answer must be that it is a fully-integrated expansion of the existing centre.

That, of course, doesn't mean that the whole centre will be successful given the credit crunch and competitors such as on-line retailing but I don't see these problems as being concentrated on one area.
 

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Keltlandia
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Ah, good old urbanism thread. We don't have enough of them these days.

I think it's largely wait and see, Tony, as I find it quite hard to predict. I think a lot of it will depend on just how much Liverpool's economy has come on over these last few years.

I'll start by saying that I think the focus, whether it be shift or expansion, towards the river, is a good thing, as the river is the heart of our city and should not be seen as the periphery. The stadium, new buildings on the watrfront etc, are all there, plus the Albert Dock etc. I have my concerns over Church Street as many of its existing stores are moving. I would say though, that Church Street, perhaps, should diversify its outlets, with more restaurants and places of leisure, instead of just shops. Remember that St Johns, for better or worse, is going nowhere, plus Rapid are taking the George Henry Lee building, so I would be surprised and very disappointed if Church Street and Bold Street become a vacuum. I am quite positive in that I reckon both places will do alright and like to believe that we're increasing are retail offer, as the city was punching under its weigth, rather than that we were already at the city's level and that we're simply moving our exising offer. The fact we've many new shops in the new development that don't already exist, is a positive point to the former, not the latter.
 

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Interesting topic. I think L1 will deliver a larger retail area, not just a shift primarily because the existing retail area is developed enough to withstand the impact of L1 (and I don't think all the impacts will be negative), and because of the way the scheme is integrated into the existing streets, so it doesn't become a 'them and us' situation beyond the opening pull, it's just the city centre as a unified whole.

Initially I think locations immediately adjacent to L1 - such as Lord Street and Church Street - will probably benefit from L1. Many people - myself included - don't often venture into the city centre. However they will be going to have a look around L1. While in town, they are likely to have a look arond the rest of the city centre too. As such the existing shops will get some of the over-spill from L1 simply by virtue of there being more people in town. Rather than being problem, L1 could actually do the existing shops a favour.

Further away from L1 however, I think locations on the periphery - Bold Street and Renshaw Street - will feel the pinch. For many months, well into next year, I think the novelty value of L1 will attract people towards that part of the city centre. The combination of new streets to explore, and new shops opening for the first time will probably result in these out-lying areas being over-looked. However I don't think this effect will be permanent.

In time as the novelty of L1 wears off, I think things will settle down a lot more. As it becomes just another part of the city centre, not the new part, I think the spread of people will balance out. As good as L1 will be, it doesn't tick all the boxes, hence people will begin to drift back to the parts of town where they can find what they like.

As for Church Street, I can't see this suffering at all. Regardless of what is going on at L1, Church Street will still have Primark, Top Shop, Next, and M&S - some of the biggest hitters on the high street. We should also remember that of these stores, Primark is almost new, Top Shop is more than doubling in size, and M&S is getting a massive re-fit. These combined will all help to ensure that Church Street continues in its long-held role as the centre of Liverpool's retail offer, regardless of L1.
 

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The problem with London Road is that it is quite eccentric from the centre and, unless or until Line 1 of Merseytram is installed, not much can be done about that. I suspect that it was successful in the past because of the density of population in the local area and the old bus routes that would have linked it to the main shopping centre.

Church Street / Lord Street is such a central axis to the city centre that it is almost impossible to avoid, even if your intended destination is Liverpool One. There are Lime Street and Central Stations at one end and James Street at the other whilst other attractions such as Queen Square the Met Quarter and Victoria Street are on the opposite side of the axis from Liverpool 1.

There is so much linkage between the axis and Liverpool One that there is little demarcation between them. (As you walk down Church Street / Lord Street, you have links into L1 via Hanover Street, Church Alley, Paradise Street, South John Street, Derby Square and the Strand). So I think the answer must be that it is a fully-integrated expansion of the existing centre.

That, of course, doesn't mean that the whole centre will be successful given the credit crunch and competitors such as on-line retailing but I don't see these problems as being concentrated on one area.
Line 1 and the proposed £200m investment for Islington, assuming it is still on the table, could yet prove to be the saviours for London Rd.

As well as the thoroughfares that you mention, there will also be the shops that are going to have new entrances into School Lane and the new arcade through the former HMV.

BTW Tony, looking good in Your Move
 

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Personally, even if it drags retailers away in the short term, it will benefit the city as a whole in the end. The vacated units will get redeveloped, in the good ol fashioned way that competition will force them to. They will adapt and survive.

It's just like the new office space. For a while it will seem lke reolcations galore, but we cannot expand without more space and when the upturn inevitably occursm, we will be better placed to take advantage of it. This downturn proves more than anything that we should have expanded when times were good. Well, we didnt even have the space before. Next time we will, as well as a big batch on new retailers from this new opening.

Thats my penny's worth anyhow.
 

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Personally I dont believe the opening of L1 will shift attention away from current city retail areas. Each area within the city has a different feel, and that contributes to its uniqueness and influence to shoppers. I personally would not want to shop in the same area every time I ventured out. I am sure other shoppers feel the same. Whilst Bold St and St. Johns exist shoppers will come. But its up to them to make the most of the situation and improve the areas to keep up with the times, as stated many times before.
 

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^^ I agree. Liverpool doesn't feel like it did even 10 years ago let alone 20 years ago. There's no longer that sense of "OMG what will be the next thing to go?" It's more one of "I wonder what will be next?" The town centre is buzzing much earlier on in the morning than it used to and it's soon to stay open much later than it ever did in the past. It feels grounded and it looks and feels like a modern town centre. There's a buzz about it and it's morphing into discrete areas offering different things - in much the same way that the night time economy (bars, restaurants, 'entertainment') has morphed into different zones.
 

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Having given it a bit more thought, I wonder whether L1 will deliver something else rather than just a larger retail area, or a shift? Specifically will it deliver the city to a point of the retail core reaching capacity?

With L1 eating up large chunks of un-used/under-utlised land, and the large plot of land behind Bold Street being spoken for by the Central Village scheme, there now isn't very much land available for future retail expansion. There are some small plots of land here and there that with some re-organisation could provide more retail space - the Police HQ and the taxi rank near Yates at Queen Square speing to mind, but there are no large sites anymore.

What happens if a large retailer wanted to move here? Say in a couple of years, the oft-mentioned Selfridges realised their mistake and wanted to locate here. Could we locate them? Without shutting down an existing large format store, I don't think we could. Indeed, even away from larger stores, as the city centre begins to fill, smaller stores may be forced out by larger retailers looking for premises. This inability to add new tenants without older ones having to close/down-size could really hold us back in the years to come.

This isn't so much a criticism of L1, as the fact remains that the city needed the extra retail space it will provide. However, could the effect of it pushing the retail core towards capacity actually hinder us in years to come?
 

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There's plenty of scope in what we already have for a major department store to be housed. Where Tesco metro is now in Clayton Square used to be Owen Owen, The former Blackers site could easily be rejigged, Rapid should never be moving into the John Lewis building so they could be moved out to accomodate a proper department store. The owners of the precinct should be encouraged to seriously rethink how they are going to use that space and be encouraged to knock it down and start again, and so on. If that weren't enough the logical expansion of town (in terms of retail) would be up London Road into Kempston Street etc.
 

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^^

I'll give you the Blackers site. I did over-look that one. As for the former Owen Owen building, to fit a department store in here would require the closing down of Tesco and TK Maxx (who operate on the upper floors). As such, would it not be better if retail space was available to accomodate newcomers rather than having to shut existing stores down to accomodate them, even if the existing store is just another Tesco?

I agree about Rapid. I suppose in a way this is an impact of L1. For me, the John Lewis building is not right for them, and quite frankly I don't think a DIY store is befitting of the building. They're pitching at a completely different market to the rest of the stores there, and dare I say it, a DIY store just seems too downmarket for our premier shopping street. That building has the potential to be home to something much better. Another department store, perhaps House of Fraser, Selfridges (or someone else) would give the city centre of a good spread of department stores right across the retail area -

Renshaw Street - Lewis's
Church Street - House of Fraser/Selfridges
Lord Street - BHS
South John Street - Debenhams
Paradise Street - John Lewis

That for me would be a much better solution.
 

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Church St was buzzing today. Primark and Next are huge stores. With expanded M&S and Top Shop to come it will continie to be a destination.

There are so many access points to L1 and it's so close to the existing shopping area that after a little while it will just feel like part of the fabric of the area.
 

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If Liverpool1 does what it is getting built for and that is increase the footfall in the city centre,Bringing back local's who maybe have been venturing elsewhere, and also attract shoppers/visitors who have not in the past viewed Liverpool as a place to go shopping then it will be seen as an expansion of the retail area. - Of course without an reasonable increase in shoppers this could lead to a shift.

There should be benefits for example to Lord st which sort of fizzled out towards the end of the street but now really will be an integral part of our shopping area, Church st should be fine due to the stores that are 'staying put'

and the way our transport layout is with people coming into town to shop from PSBS,queens sq,central,Lime st and James st (which may be a more natural point to disembark from the wirral when L1 is up and running)Means shoppers are arriving from all angles and not all being routed straight into South John st (for example).But for all my waffling my first point is still the key as long as it brings in 'a lot' more dosh and not just redirect it then the rest of the retail area will be fine.
 

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I think it will lead a shift of Liverpool (area) shoppers away from the Trafford Centre... back to Liverpool.
 

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^^

True. And I think we're all hoping that it also leads to a shift of Manchester, Southport, Warrington, St. Helens and other area shoppers heading towards Liverpool for the first time (or the first time in a while anyway).
 

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^^

True. And I think we're all hoping that it also leads to a shift of Manchester, Southport, Warrington, St. Helens and other area shoppers heading towards Liverpool for the first time (or the first time in a while anyway).

Yes agreed, I was including Southport, Warrington ... even Blackpool etc... in my thinking. As long as there is enough parking...

...come to think of it I haven't seen any vast parking areas in/around L1, I know some of it is underground. Does anyone know how many parking spaces are provided and where?
 

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The following have been built as part of Liverpool One -

Strand Street (Underground) - 1850 spaces
Liver Street (MSCP) - 581 spaces
Gradwell Street (MSCP) - 553 spaces

In addition the following car parks already exist within easy walking distance of Liverpool One (all MSCP) -

Kings Dock - 1600 spaces
Seel Street - 235 spaces
Queen Square - 600 spaces
St. John's - 625 spaces
Lime Street - 272 spaces
Mount Pleasant - not sure of the capacity on this one, but it can take several hundred vehicles.

plus there is also on-street parking along several nearby streets which should also help take some of the load.
 

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the parking might be the issue for those coming far from town... I think there are about 10,000 at the t/c and on busy weekends it's hard to find a space... it only takes a couple of failed attempts to put people off for quite a while. Hopefully L1 can cope.
 

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Mount Pleasant - not sure of the capacity on this one, but it can take several hundred vehicles.

plus there is also on-street parking along several nearby streets which should also help take some of the load.
I think there are at least 1500 for Mt Pleasant and from memory, there are a similar number of on street pay and display places in the City Centre.
 
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