Fantasy Motorway: Liverpool City Region Orbital

scouse1980 said:

Just wanted to share a little fantasy which I thought might interest a few. The fantasy is one where existing A roads in the area would be converted into motorways to create one complete cross-river orbital motorway for the entire city. You bet your bottom dollar if this was London (or Manchester), the idea would have been well and truly discussed at length, so please indulge me…It may have already been thought of on here…

I think it would be fairly simple (in fantasy land at least), to complete the new orbital motorway…

The existing A5036 from its junction with M57/M58 to Seaforth would be converted to motorway. There would then need to be some sort of cross river bridge or tunnel to connect this road to the A554 on the New Brighton side of the Mersey. The A554 right down to its junction with M53 would then be converted.

To complete the orbital, the Knowsley Expressway (A5300) would be converted, as well as A562, A533 and A557 all the way down to M56. Voila, one complete orbital motorway for the Liverpool City Region of 1.6 million people. It would take approximately 50 miles to do one complete circle, that’s a slightly larger circumference than the M60 Manchester Orbital and less than half the M25. Imagine Bootle to Bidston in 5 minutes, or Litherland to Leasowe in ten!

Click to expand...

That map makes sense and extending the motorway would create economic growth in north Liverpool, and allow the Port of Liverpool to develop. The extension of the A5300 and the A557, make perfect economic sense, for south Liverpool and the airport. I'm skeptical though about the prospects of a new bridge or tunnel being built between north Liverpool and New Brighton, but what I would suggest, if the rest of those proposals were to happen, but with the a5207 connected to the dock road and the Mersey Tunnels. when I say the dock road I don't mean Great Howard Street and Derby Road, I mean the lower dock road which could be widened to allow a free flow of traffic, I think it's called Regent Road, I don't drive.

Dingle All The Way said:

Why is the knowsley expressway not already part of the M57? Why isn't the M58 and M57 the same road? It seems it could be easily achieved by cutting the corner across a field.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure but I think it is because the road is not part of the national motorway network and is therefore funded at a regional level. In fact, I remember hearing that the section of the M62 from Jcn 6 (where it intersects the M57) and Jcn 4 (at Queens Drive) is not considered part of the national motorway network as the main route is via the M57 to the Port of Liverpool.

I think that the reason that the two M-ways don't link is that one is a radial and the other an orbital. It was originally intended that the M57 would continue on northwards toward Southport.

Some good ideas there. I can't see there being a bridge/tunnel across Liverpool Bay like that. A different option would be to take the M53 through the Wallasey Tunnel and then make a new motorway either out of Scotland Road, or more probably, via the Dock Road north. It could go through the dock estate and then swing back inland for Switch Island (which should finally be a decent, multi-level interchange).

The M53 does a similar thing to the Knowsley Expressway, working its way round Chester at exactly the same standard but suddenly it's the A55. In fact you could probably count the entire A55 in the "why isn't it a motorway?" category.

jetsetwilly said:

Some good ideas there. I can't see there being a bridge/tunnel across Liverpool Bay like that. A different option would be to take the M53 through the Wallasey Tunnel and then make a new motorway either out of Scotland Road, or more probably, via the Dock Road north. It could go through the dock estate and then swing back inland for Switch Island (which should finally be a decent, multi-level interchange).

The M53 does a similar thing to the Knowsley Expressway, working its way round Chester at exactly the same standard but suddenly it's the A55. In fact you could probably count the entire A55 in the "why isn't it a motorway?" category.

Click to expand...

The original plan for the M53 was to go from the Wallasey tunnel and head across Hooton to link up with what is now the A55 linking Holyhead with Liverpool (Remember the bridge bit just before the A41 junction) The likes of Shell , Vauxhall ,Octel and Van Leer kicked up a fuss and got a link road built first , this is what the M53 is now , a 2 lane motorway serving nearly 350,000 people hno: this explains the mad 90 degree bend at junction 5 ! The project ran out of money and it is only in the last 10 years that they demolished the bridge bit at junction 5

Cheers for all the feedback..I know what yous mean about the new bridge to New Brighton considering how long the Mersey Gateway has taken to get up and running. What would be needed to connect Wirral with Seaforth would be twice, possibly three times the length of the Halton bridge.

It gets a bit complicated and built up round North Liverpool with suburban houses facing onto the main A roads, especially round Litherland etc...so extending the motorway would no doubt be messy and a few flyovers here and there would be probably be needed. From what yous are saying, there's 3 possible routes? It's probably not too accurate and over general but here goes the revised proposal...

Oges efc said:

The original plan for the M53 was to go from the Wallasey tunnel and head across Hooton to link up with what is now the A55 linking Holyhead with Liverpool

Click to expand...

Indeed, I read somewhere that even today roadside marker posts indicate that the M53 is measured from the Liverpool end of the tunnel, not from the start of the motorway in Wallasey, testament to the fact that the Kingsway Tunnel was originally earmarked as the start of M53. It seems that our city region has been dogged by failed after failed highway scheme over the years, but I still feel very strongly that a conurbation of 1.6 million deserves a fully functional continuous orbital on both sides of the Mersey.

The Dublin Port Tunnel carries Dublin's orbital motorway from the city's port to the airport and is nearly twice the length of the Kingsway tunnel, proof that a motorway tunnel can function successfully at the sort of length needed to cross the Mersey. A couple of things come to mind though, if the Kingsway was converted to motorway, would traffic need to be slowed and how would Merseytravel deal with tolls being dropped?

Martin S said:

How would you justify an orbital motorway for Liverpool? After all, how much of the traffic that goes through our city is going somewhere else other than Liverpool? How many coastal cities have orbital motorways?

Click to expand...

Dublin & Amsterdam are examples, their ring roads also cross river sections. They're both on the coast and have similar populations to our region, albeit they are capitals. Lisbon and the towns opposite also have one complete orbital crossing the river at two points, but different parts of the orbital have different numbers, it's virtually the same thing though...Add to that Antwerpen.

Amsterdam Metropolitan Area: 2.5 million

Antwerp Metropolitan Area: 1.4 million



Dublin Metropolitan Area: 1.5 million



Lisbon Metropolitan Area: 2.6 million



Liverpool/Birkenhead Metropolitan Area: 2.2 million



Source: ESPON European Observation Network
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_Europe

Compare the above European metropolitan areas with Liverpool's (which are all on the coast), and you can see just how poorly connected this city is with its surrounding areas...

scouse1980 said:

It gets a bit complicated and built up round North Liverpool with suburban houses facing onto the main A roads, especially round Litherland etc...so extending the motorway would no doubt be messy and a few flyovers here and there would be probably be needed. From what yous are saying, there's 3 possible routes? It's probably not too accurate and over general but here goes the revised proposal...

Click to expand...

I love the concept, but I doubt any of the 3 routes you've shown would be suitable for a motorway.

What a spiffing thread......very warming compared to the turgid meanderings about tramlines and electric buses.

In the big big strategic picture its integrated road transport which calls the shots what with 90% of both private and commercial traffic gravitating to the roads. What's held the story back in our metro area is a lack of political authority, no regional assembly, no Mayor etc and if that does start to happen we're bound to see better road investment.

Unfortunately this power vacum has partly been filled by Merseytravel which has placed itself in an insidious role at the heart of the conurbation with its unfortunate control and hence stranglehold over the only 2 mersey crossings, the tunnels. At a stroke it can parade itself as a pseudo highway agency while having no wider statuatory responsiblities to oversee the wider road network development (as a Mayor or regional assembly would).

Anyone can see that knitting together the diferent sides of the conurbation across the Mersey would bring huge economic benefits...not Merseytravel. Only too happy to sit on its cash cow monopoly of tunnell tolls which in turn are used to develop anti car policies. Yes Merseytravel has a crucial statuatory role to develop and improve public transport but they do it through a very twisted lens.

I don't think the Kingsway tunnel could be a full motorway because of the tight curves on the Liverpool exit, but that's no barrier to it being part of an orbital - the M25 isn't technically a full circle, because the Dartford crossings aren't motorway. I'd like this scheme to go ahead just as a way of sorting out the horrible mess that is Switch Island. The M57 really should go all the way to the coast, and there really should be a decent, free-flowing connection with the M58.

If there was a new tunnel or bridge being built, I'd much rather have a decent crossing of the Dee. It'd slice a massive amount of time off the trip from Liverpool to Holyhead and North Wales and effectively make that portion of the country commutable.

jetsetwilly said:

I don't think the Kingsway tunnel could be a full motorway because of the tight curves on the Liverpool exit, but that's no barrier to it being part of an orbital - the M25 isn't technically a full circle, because the Dartford crossings aren't motorway. I'd like this scheme to go ahead just as a way of sorting out the horrible mess that is Switch Island. The M57 really should go all the way to the coast, and there really should be a decent, free-flowing connection with the M58.

If there was a new tunnel or bridge being built, I'd much rather have a decent crossing of the Dee. It'd slice a massive amount of time off the trip from Liverpool to Holyhead and North Wales and effectively make that portion of the country commutable.

Click to expand...

Some good points! Just to update on what is actually happening. The new Thornton bypass will connect the Switch Island M57/M58 interchange with the A565 to Crosby. You could argue this bypass is essentially an extension of the M57, and it follows more or less the original intentions of the 1960's, but wait for it...the Thornton bypass will be a single carriageway!! :madwife: It beggars belief, but I suppose there's scope for it to be widened in the future?

As regards the A5036 towards Seaforth Docks, as I understand it, this is part of a Highways Agency strategy that will consider various alternative options for increasing the capacity of the road. Options may include bus priority, Heavy Goods Vehicle lanes, High Occupancy Vehicle lanes, reducing or removing access onto the route, and road user charging. In other words they've ignored the possibility of extending the M58. What a missed opportunity. I suppose I could make another one of my little maps for the Thornton bypass, but I fear the thread is turning into the Ordinance Survey, so the proposed route can be found at this link http://www.sefton.gov.uk/PDF/TS_Thornton_Link_Approved_Alignment.pdf

I think the whole situation is a shambles, our city region is being shafted and being robbed of a proper orbital as per the 1960's...