Skyscraper City Forum banner
1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,687 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Because there are those who mistakenly believe that it is Sydney's topography that is the reason for so few level crossings compared with Melbourne:

I don't know how to embed Google map streetviews into php but will post links regardless.

And this time, rather than post the level crossing pics, I'll post the grade sep picks and approximate dates.

Imagine, Yardy, you are entering Melbourne from Nar Nar Goon, and Sydney from Menangle Park.

By the time you enter leave Pakenham on the up you've passed at least 4 major crossings I can think of, another at Officer, one at Berwick, but another removed at Narre, another one (from memory) at Hallam and a couple before Dandenong.

I'll ignore the freeways too as these are built sepped from scratch.

Gilchrist Drv Macarthur, 1980s

Narellan Rd Macarthur 1980s

Broughton Rd Campbelltown, road severed at least 1960s

Moore St Campbelltown 1980s

Road severance, Lumeah, unknown date

Rose Paynton Dv Lumeah

numerous road severances Minto

Ben Lomond Road Minto 1970s?

Road severance Ingleburn unknown date

other road severances

Henderson Rd Ingleburn 1980s?

Probable severance Glenfield

Glenfield, 1990s?

Old overpass Shepherd St Liverpool, and Atkinson St severance

Final one for today, Newbridge St Liverpool, 1970s?

with only one level crossing, soon to be closed, Casula.

So tell me, tribalists, what prevents Victoria, in flat country not unlike Menangle Park to Liverpool and about the same distance, building as many grand seps as NSW has? Look forward to the deafening silence :cheers:
 

·
Lurker
Joined
·
3,805 Posts
I would argue that more could be done in areas with little development but there are many crossings in Melbourne in the inner-middle suburbs that require moving the railway tracks under the road (or over) to avoid killing off the adjoining shopping strip.

That said, a lot of stations in Melbourne are quite over-engineered these days.

It's not so much as big a deal in the outer suburbs but for example the crossings between Caulfield and Dandenong can be down for a very significant proportion of time during peak and this brings all traffic (including feeder bus services) to a standstill. From where I live, it's quicker to walk to the station (20 mins) than sit on a bus that's stuck in traffic.
 

·
Registered Noob.
Joined
·
700 Posts
the number of level crossings in Melbourne should be a huge concern, not only does it lock up traffic in peak hour, it is also can delay trains with level crossing accidents..also the constant bell noise was annoying when there was an accident..

Funny Eco-Rat should mention the Airport/East Hills line, not only because is it the line i use, but it is also being quadruplicated and they are rebuilding almost every bridge and station between Kingsgrove and Revesby. Between Central and Macarthur there is not a single level crossing. Does such a line exist in Melbourne, one that is entirely grade separated?
 

·
Rabid Furry Skier
Joined
·
3,491 Posts
Funny Eco-Rat should mention the Airport/East Hills line, not only because is it the line i use, but it is also being quadruplicated and they are rebuilding almost every bridge and station between Kingsgrove and Revesby. Between Central and Macarthur there is not a single level crossing. Does such a line exist in Melbourne, one that is entirely grade separated?
The closest that I can think of is the Ringwood Line which is fully grade separated until the 12km or somewhere about there and has 6 level crossings for its approx 25km length which is quite low compared to other lines of Melbourne that I can recall..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
836 Posts
The Sydenham line isn't too bad either. No level crossings until just before Albion (14.5km) and only two more after that. There'll be additional level crossings added through with the electrification of this line to Sunbury.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,727 Posts
I can only think of 3 Sydney railway lines that have any crossings at all. They are the South Line, the Richmond Branch and the Carlingford Line.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,239 Posts
Gilchrist Drv Macarthur, 1980s

Narellan Rd Macarthur 1980s

Broughton Rd Campbelltown, road severed at least 1960s

Moore St Campbelltown 1980s

Road severance, Lumeah, unknown date

Rose Paynton Dv Lumeah

numerous road severances Minto

Ben Lomond Road Minto 1970s?

Road severance Ingleburn unknown date

other road severances

Henderson Rd Ingleburn 1980s?

Probable severance Glenfield

Glenfield, 1990s?

Old overpass Shepherd St Liverpool, and Atkinson St severance

Final one for today, Newbridge St Liverpool, 1970s?

with only one level crossing, soon to be closed, Casula.

So tell me, tribalists, what prevents Victoria, in flat country not unlike Menangle Park to Liverpool and about the same distance, building as many grand seps as NSW has? Look forward to the deafening silence :cheers:
look at the dates you have listed for all of those things Eco.

most happened in the 60's-80's. Current day Sydney has an INHERITANCE of removed level crossings not a BURDEN of removing level crossings on the basis of todays rail standards, road standards, community standards, costs.

Do you think if Sydney still had ~170 level crossings in its metropolitan area today it would be advancing much quicker then Melbourne is at removing them???


most of Melbourne's grade separations wouldn't be built in their current format if constructed today. envelopes for trains are smaller than standard, safety protection on bridge abutments are less than standard, community expectations (urban design/noise et al) are less than would be required nowadays. its another case of you ignoring the financial reality of the situation.


even if we said that on average a level crossing can be removed for $20 million that adds up to $3.4 billion to grade separate the entire Metropolitan train system. of course the average price is probably closer to $40 million = $6.8 billion... How quickly do you want them delivered?
 

·
derp
Joined
·
10,274 Posts
look at the dates you have listed for all of those things Eco.

most happened in the 60's-80's. Current day Sydney has an INHERITANCE of removed level crossings not a BURDEN of removing level crossings on the basis of todays rail standards, road standards, community standards, costs.
Eco-rat has the dates wrong - the significant level crossings between Glenfield and Macarthur were all done in the 1990s.

Gilchrist Drive - built new in 1980s
Narellan Road - 1997
Broughton Street - closed for electrification (probably)
Campbelltown Road/Moore Street - 1920s
Leumeah - 1996
Ben Lomond Rd - c.1995

etc etc

Sydney has an inheritance of level crossing removal because it actually funded level crossing removal. Melbourne didn't and you are left with the legacy.

The point of the post was "why didn't it happen?" in Melbourne. As eco-rat has pointed out, the topography cannot be used as an argument as the topography is much the same.

The urban form of the inner areas can perhaps be used as an argument - Sydney had most of its inner level crossings removed when the lines were built or when they were rebuilt prior to the 1930s. The topography also helped in many of these locations.

However it doesn't explain why grade-separations in the suburbs were not done in Melbourne like they were in Sydney.
 

·
WARREN
Joined
·
8,227 Posts
The closest that I can think of is the Ringwood Line which is fully grade separated until the 12km or somewhere about there and has 6 level crossings for its approx 25km length which is quite low compared to other lines of Melbourne that I can recall..
Not really. There's 11 level crossings between Surrey Hills and Lilydale. The Sydenham line would be a good contender if it wasn't for that out of it's 3 level crossings, two are on arterial roads and one is an infamous crossing (Main Rd, St Albans).

(It'll pick up 6 new level crossings in the Watergardens-Sunbury section soon anyway, so maybe a little short-lived)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,239 Posts
yep 170 level crossings across 11 lines or something means all are pretty much stuffed.

[QUOTE = CKF]The point of the post was "why didn't it happen?" in Melbourne. As eco-rat has pointed out, the topography cannot be used as an argument as the topography is much the same.[/QUOTE]

agree. but I don't see much point about arguing why something didn't happen and instead discuss what things can and should happen.

which brings me back to...

[QUOTE = me]even if we said that on average a level crossing can be removed for $20 million that adds up to $3.4 billion to grade separate the entire Metropolitan train system. of course the average price is probably closer to $40 million = $6.8 billion... [/QUOTE]

if we assume provision of $100 million a year to grade separate crossings at $20 million per crossing it would take 34 years to remove all crossings. more realistic is 68 years at $40 million average - and more realistic again is 1 a year for the first 10 years to do the 'big ones' at $100 million each and then starting to do 2-4 a year for the following 50 years on the 'cheaper ones'

Happy to ratchet it up to $200 million in lieu of the rest of the roads budget but I'm not sure how the people of Cranbourne would feel about not getting duplications on outer suburban roads that are already over capacity.
 

·
Rabid Furry Skier
Joined
·
3,491 Posts
Not really. There's 11 level crossings between Surrey Hills and Lilydale. The Sydenham line would be a good contender if it wasn't for that out of it's 3 level crossings, two are on arterial roads and one is an infamous crossing (Main Rd, St Albans).

(It'll pick up 6 new level crossings in the Watergardens-Sunbury section soon anyway, so maybe a little short-lived)
I was only counting up to Ringwood as I sort of consider the two lines beyond Ringwood to be sort of branch lines. I suppose I was skewing the image a bit as I don't see it as two lines, but one line with two branches at the end as an extension, but that is my perspective. Still a few level crossings admittedly.
 

·
WARREN
Joined
·
8,227 Posts
I was only counting up to Ringwood as I sort of consider the two lines beyond Ringwood to be sort of branch lines. I suppose I was skewing the image a bit as I don't see it as two lines, but one line with two branches at the end as an extension, but that is my perspective. Still a few level crossings admittedly.
The peak frequency of trains in those areas is quite high though, higher than the suburban frequency on several other lines. There's about 50mins iirc in the morning peak with departures from Belgrave no more than 8 minutes apart.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,687 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
agree. but I don't see much point about arguing why something didn't happen and instead discuss what things can and should happen.
...

Happy to ratchet it up to $200 million in lieu of the rest of the roads budget but I'm not sure how the people of Cranbourne would feel about not getting duplications on outer suburban roads that are already over capacity.
Shirley you can't be serious.

Maybe you weren't, but I was around when Cain and Kirner and Hamer and Kennett and friends were not doing the work that Sydney was doing, and these tools were receiving advice from people VERY MUCH like yourself, in a building built from birdpoo not too distant from the current advisers.

So that doesn't cut it for me. If you can't give me a justification for the poor transport advice was given in the 80s, why should I believe the advice has improved?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,687 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Not really. There's 11 level crossings between Surrey Hills and Lilydale. The Sydenham line would be a good contender if it wasn't for that out of it's 3 level crossings, two are on arterial roads and one is an infamous crossing (Main Rd, St Albans).

(It'll pick up 6 new level crossings in the Watergardens-Sunbury section soon anyway, so maybe a little short-lived)
True though that City to Albion is a good stretch as is city to Union Rd Surrey Hills. Fixing St Albans to Box Hill was definitely doable, though not a high priority.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,239 Posts
Shirley you can't be serious.

Maybe you weren't, but I was around when Cain and Kirner and Hamer and Kennett and friends were not doing the work that Sydney was doing, and these tools were receiving advice from people VERY MUCH like yourself, in a building built from birdpoo not too distant from the current advisers.

So that doesn't cut it for me. If you can't give me a justification for the poor transport advice was given in the 80s, why should I believe the advice has improved?
Should I take it from your post that you take responsibility for the decisions made in your organisation from the 80's and 90's? Does the CEO of a company today take responsibility for the actions of the CEO circa 1990 or does he jsut get on with the job of working with what he has??


when these things weren't done I was still in Primary School so I can hardly offer advice on why particular advice was or wasn't given by the public service and was or wasn't accepted by the government of the day.

my guess:
- Victoria was broke
- relative to Sydney Victoria had lesser growth and transport pressures to do these works at the time
- train patronage and number of trains barely grew from 1960-2000 so why would you worry about level crossings?
- road network priorities was building the freeway network that the city could not operate without (imagine Melbourne with no 'south eastern freeway' circa 1970's or Citylink circa '90s)

is that a good enough reason??? hindsight says no. was it a justifiable reason at the time... for the people making the decisions we would have to assume yes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,306 Posts
Eco-rat has the dates wrong - the significant level crossings between Glenfield and Macarthur were all done in the 1990s.

Gilchrist Drive - built new in 1980s
Narellan Road - 1997
Broughton Street - closed for electrification (probably)
Campbelltown Road/Moore Street - 1920s
Leumeah - 1996
Ben Lomond Rd - c.1995

etc etc

Sydney has an inheritance of level crossing removal because it actually funded level crossing removal. Melbourne didn't and you are left with the legacy.

The point of the post was "why didn't it happen?" in Melbourne. As eco-rat has pointed out, the topography cannot be used as an argument as the topography is much the same.

The urban form of the inner areas can perhaps be used as an argument - Sydney had most of its inner level crossings removed when the lines were built or when they were rebuilt prior to the 1930s. The topography also helped in many of these locations.

However it doesn't explain why grade-separations in the suburbs were not done in Melbourne like they were in Sydney.
To understand the *why it didn't happen* question is to live in Melbourne (or Vic) and work out the local culture. It's a very insular place that thrives on the *pat on the back mate she'll be right* culture that is evident in everything it does.

Nothing is ever finished and half the time it is done on the cheap, regardless of good intentions and excellent design. Melbourne in particular seems to have an image of itself as this great city and the new world city but only compares itself to well, *itself*. (or Sydney still) and that old tag *The most livable city* in the world and keeps trying to remind itself that.

When in actual fact it is 50 years behind in infrastructure, has had an incredible boom time but hasn't delivered any of the real benefits that should have come with it. Now it is playing catch up big time.

If Melbourne and Victoria are to survive they are going to have to stop window dressing and start re-building basic infrastructure.

mx
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,352 Posts
en if we said that on average a level crossing can be removed for $20 million that adds up to $3.4 billion to grade separate the entire Metropolitan train system.
....
10. Xings are sepped, using funds diverted from freeway construction, and at levels that would be comparable with Sydney.
For comparisons sake, Eastlink was $2.5 bil....Clem7 in Brisbane was $3 Bil. So the cost of grade sepping the whole network isn't too far out of the realms of what was spent on some recent freeway mega projects in Australia.

Just friggen do it....The road lobby/motorists in general would love it since everyone is likely to see one of these projects happen in their area.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,687 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
....

For comparisons sake, Eastlink was $2.5 bil....Clem7 in Brisbane was $3 Bil. So the cost of grade sepping the whole network isn't too far out of the realms of what was spent on some recent freeway mega projects in Australia.

Just friggen do it....The road lobby/motorists in general would love it since everyone is likely to see one of these projects happen in their area.
Agree 200%

There is a lot to be said for speeding up traffic by simply removing obstacles, rather than building new routes.

Problems for PT like Murrumbeena will never be solved while the level crossings exist.

You can't expect people to catch a bus to their station, or a tram to the city, while the bus or tram is affected by road congestion, usually much worse than the cars in the same patch of road, who can manoeuvre, speed up or divert around problems.

I used to be opposed to grade sepping but as a result of understanding Lord Riccardo's five basic models of passenger rail operation* in Australia, 3 of them depend on grade separation from road traffic to work at maximum effectiveness, I am no longer opposed to grade sepping.

I understand the Spiderman objections (go to Melbourneontransit.blogspot.com) but unless you run economically the sort of cute little branch railways they have in Japan, you are not going to get your rail vehicle intimate enough with the townscape to accept the Spiderman logic.

Peter Parker uses examples like Clayton, which would be fine if not for the freight, Vline and dozens of suburban sparks crossing this road per hour. The Spark pax are very close in to the retail centre, but buses can't move easily because of the traffic congestion. And collisions are becoming so frequent as to make the rail service unreliable, penalising it more than driving is penalised from unreliability.

* The five models:

-the underground urban mass transit railway
-the long distance commuter railway
-the high speed train
-the urban medium distance light rail system
-the CBD street tramway

and I should add outside the urban PT context

-the extremely long distance cruise-style train
-the preserved/tourist railway
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,687 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Should I take it from your post that you take responsibility for the decisions made in your organisation from the 80's and 90's? Does the CEO of a company today take responsibility for the actions of the CEO circa 1990 or does he jsut get on with the job of working with what he has??

when these things weren't done I was still in Primary School so I can hardly offer advice on why particular advice was or wasn't given by the public service and was or wasn't accepted by the government of the day.

my guess:
- Victoria was broke
- relative to Sydney Victoria had lesser growth and transport pressures to do these works at the time
- train patronage and number of trains barely grew from 1960-2000 so why would you worry about level crossings?
- road network priorities was building the freeway network that the city could not operate without (imagine Melbourne with no 'south eastern freeway' circa 1970's or Citylink circa '90s)

is that a good enough reason??? hindsight says no. was it a justifiable reason at the time... for the people making the decisions we would have to assume yes.
JP no one is blaming you for the 1980s.

But I'm asking how do you know better decisions are being made now, than by your forebears, who also 'spun' their work as if made of gold, back when you were in primary school.

I want an assurance that the quality of the decision making is better now - one I doubt you'll be able to give. You can only disown the mistakes of the past when you are sure the same mistakes are not being made now.

The excuses you've mentioned are not 'exogenous' to the system (outside of it). They are part of it.

If Sydney was growing faster than Melbourne - maybe this has the same root cause as the lack of action in transport in Melbourne.

Did Sydney not also build freeways during the same period?

BTW this is not to flatter Sydney - it's to specifically challenge the idea that topography is to blame.

At least, JP, you don't appear to be doing that, that is what Yardy is doing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,239 Posts
To understand the *why it didn't happen* question is to live in Melbourne (or Vic) and work out the local culture. It's a very insular place that thrives on the *pat on the back mate she'll be right* culture that is evident in everything it does.

Nothing is ever finished and half the time it is done on the cheap, regardless of good intentions and excellent design. Melbourne in particular seems to have an image of itself as this great city and the new world city but only compares itself to well, *itself*. (or Sydney still) and that old tag *The most livable city* in the world and keeps trying to remind itself that.

When in actual fact it is 50 years behind in infrastructure, has had an incredible boom time but hasn't delivered any of the real benefits that should have come with it. Now it is playing catch up big time.

If Melbourne and Victoria are to survive they are going to have to stop window dressing and start re-building basic infrastructure.

mx

good post. I think you're right. Melbourne has a history of resting on its laurels. thinkign that 'understated cool' is a good enough reason not to excel at anything (including transport infrastrcuture)

The Melbourne Boom has another few years to run and then the lost 8 years of Bracks power will catch up on us and we'll grind to a true halt (we aren't at a halt quite yet). and yes I deliberately said lost 8 years of Bracks power, becuase wether you like him or not Brumby at least 'did stuff' (south morang, laverton, westall, RRL, Desal, north/south pipeline all projects on his watch in 3 years compared to (insert sound of crickets here) while Bracks was there...
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top