General Transit Discussions

Gee I guess you didn't say that anyone making less than that is being exploited huh?

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Dude...I was refering to considerably less than that...as in the fast food/Walmart type people, or people who get caught in the "part time" hours scam employers like to use....not somebody making $25.75 an hour. You're taking me too literally.

What qualifies you to say everyone under $26/hour is exploited?

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Well, since that's not really what i said, it's a moot point (and please, don't waste everyone's time by reposting what i said again). But, there's a big difference between my statement and yours...I highly doubt anyone is going to have a problem if I say they should be earning more than they are. On the other hand, I doubt too many appreciate you, who has no clue, telling them they aren't worth what they are being paid.

Begining to see the point yet?

I highly doubt you are an expert on absolutely everything you've ever posted on this board.

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Well, if you really want to know...yes I am.

If unions are a guaranteed right in Canada... well so is free speech.

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But if that so-called free speech includes notions of people being denied their rights...it's basically useless speech isn't it? Why waste time with useless words?

So yes, I have absolutely every right to say that they are overpaid and express my opinion, and perhaps even vote in people in office who will not give in to their union demands. That's part of the democracy that our country supports.

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Well yea...you have the right to form whatever opinion you want, and act accordingly. But it is clear that you are making an uninformed opinion, which is not good for anyone. It's a far too common problem, but a reality we have to live with I guess.

Yet again you need to actually read people's posts. Reading is obviously not your strong point.

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Trying to argue from the point that I am dumb or something is going to get you....nowhere. Let's not pretend that tactic has a chance in hell of working. Let's assume my reading comprehension is pretty good....we will get farther ahead that way.

I actually said I don't mind unions.

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They will be so relieved to hear that. ha ha

What you (or me) mind...or don't mind on that point is irrelevant.

I never said I would outlaw unions or that I would even come anywhere close to that. Me pointing out that they should stop whining doesn't equate to me wanting to make unions illegal. That fallacious leap of logic is a gross twisting of my words.

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Well, actually it does say that...and that's what you have to start understanding...you can't be a little pregnant on this one. And why use such arbitrary words like "whining" ? Since when does negotiating your contract equate to whining??? What you are doing right now is what whining means.

You know nothing about the details of the TTC's union contract, what their jobs actually entail, what the issues are. You also don't seem to know anything about how unions work either.

All in all, you seem to be one very uninformed individual on the subject, but at the same time, one very opinionated individual about it...bad combination.

If the topic interests you, why don't you make an effort to go talk to someone who knows first hand about the issue, and learn something, rather than blab your uninformed opinions on a chat forum? That's what I did. I can simply talk to my uncle, who is a veteren TTC driver, who tells me every little detail you would never know by simply reading media stories...or in your case, dreaming up your own little scenario.




KGB

KGB said:

On the other hand, I doubt too many appreciate you, who has no clue, telling them they aren't worth what they are being paid.

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Actually I think most people think like how I do, if you don't believe me you can see what most people have said on this thread, but if you don't like their opinions either I guess you can stay narrow minded and pretend that you have all the answers.

But if that so-called free speech includes notions of people being denied their rights...it's basically useless speech isn't it? Why waste time with useless words?

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I still don't see where I ever came close to implying people should be denied rights. If anything I would imply that the city should take a tougher stance in negotiating TTC contracts.

Well yea...you have the right to form whatever opinion you want, and act accordingly. But it is clear that you are making an uninformed opinion, which is not good for anyone. It's a far too common problem, but a reality we have to live with I guess.

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As aside from yourself who will keep changing his ideas to suit the purpose. If you think that only the wal-mart types are actually 'exploited', what's the point in even bringing it up in the first place? TTC workers make 2.5x more than Wal-Mart workers, it's an absolute moot point. Obviously you were not implying that the first time you said it and now you're trying to backtrack as I have caught you in your act. Nice try bud, but no one's falling for it.

If the topic interests you, why don't you make an effort to go talk to someone who knows first hand about the issue, and learn something, rather than blab your uninformed opinions on a chat forum? That's what I did. I can simply talk to my uncle, who is a veteren TTC driver, who tells me every little detail you would never know by simply reading media stories...or in your case, dreaming up your own little scenario.

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Uhoh... so you know stuff because your uncle works for the TTC :| Yes, obviously your uncle isn't biased at all. Well if you must know, I refer yet again to your reading ability, where I specifically said that I had a friend who worked for the TTC for two summers in a row. He actually brought in a few more people with him, so I ended up knowing quite a few TTC workers and they told me how much of a joke his fare collection job was and his bus washing job the next year, and how lazy everyone was for the amount of money they were paid. I trust them a hell of a lot more than you.

BTW since you are still grossly misinformed as to rights in Canada I point to you the charter or rights and freedoms:

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/

Notice right #2. And also notice there's nothing in there about the 'right' to have unions or to strike.

But even though it's not a guaranteed charter right, I still support the concept of unions in Canada, even if I think the government should take a harder line in negotiating with them in terms of pay.

Actually I think most people think like how I do

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What a comforting thought.

Rather than see this degenerate into an even bigger moronic exchange, where every statement you make is incorrect, or a half-assed insult, I will simply leave you to wallow in your ignorance, because trying to reason with you is obviously a waste of time.




KGB

Well... it was bound to be posted. I think it's outrageous that the union is walking away from negotiations. They are holding the city ransom. This new deal that they propose (100% pay for injuries and sickness) will INCREASE the level of complacency and laziness that already exists with many TTC workers. They are already very very handsomely paid as it is. Instead of coming to work on the odd day, they may decide to call in sick / injured everyday and enjoy FULL benefits while TTC passengers suffer even more. That 12% absentee rate for cleaners is going increase much much more. hno:

Their greed has no end in sight. Not even negotiating now. There will be a transit strike next week.


Toronto Transit union says safety first, or no contract
Last Updated: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 | 1:12 PM ET
CBC News


Operator safety is the issue that has driven a wedge between the Toronto Transit Commission and its union — and threatens to bring Canada's largest city to a halt next week.

"We have called off negotiations until the TTC can address this fundamental issue," said union president Bob Kinnear.

Right now, drivers, operators and maintenance staff suffer a reduction in pay if they are off work because of injuries on the job. The union says that must change and has drawn a line in the sand.

"It is very unlikely that there will be an offer that will be accepted by our negotiating committee that does not address this issue," said Kinnear.

Speaking at a morning news conference, the Local 113 president said the union has "called off" negotiations on a new contract, describing talks to date as "unproductive."

Kinnear said that the union's negotiating committee is adamant that it will get an agreement on unreduced pay for injured TTC employees, or there will not be a deal.

"To be quite honest, there are a number of issues on the table that [have] had very little discussion. You know our negotiating committee took the position last week, because the negotiations have been so unproductive to this point, we took a position that we needed this issue addressed and we wanted the TTC to seriously begin discussions on this issue."

Kinnear said the issue of driver safety is "fundamental" to the union's bottom line.
Sometimes 2 or 3 assaults a day

"I can tell you that each and every day of the year we see at least one assault. Sometimes there are two or three. So there are literally hundreds of injuries through assaults, as well as a number of incidents that have been widely reported through the media of our maintenance workers working in increasingly difficult conditions and increasingly unsafe conditions."

He added: "We believe that this is a moral issue.

"This is a major deal breaker. If [TTC general manager] Gary Webster can make arguments as to why the front-line employees … should have their pay reduced because they're attacked, if he can give us a reasonable answer as to why they should incur that penalty and he does not, then we'll take a look at it."

Toronto's transit system could come to a halt as early as next week if the two sides in the contract negotiations fail to reach an agreement.

Local 113 of the Amalgamated Transit Workers Union represents more than 9,000 TTC workers.

The TTC carries more than 1.5 million passengers every weekday.

TTC chair Adam Giambrone said Tuesday morning he remains hopeful the two sides can work out a deal without disrupting transit service.
First offer unanimously rejected

"We don't have any information as to whether or not negotiations will continue. We're still hoping for a negotiated settlement, and we're working very hard to achieve it," said Giambrone.

The workers strongly — almost unanimously — rejected the TTC's first offer two weeks ago, saying that it didn't adequately address the safety issue, as well as other monetary concerns.

Kinnear says the union doesn't want a strike, but insists the union must get back some of the concessions it has given up over the years. "We continue to endure," he said, making reference to contracts from more than a decade ago. "We've done our part."

The unionized workers are in a legal strike position as of midnight next Monday. So they could walk off the job anytime after that.

The last time the TTC was affected by a work stoppage was in May 2006. The one-day illegal walkout caused chaos in the city. The commission said the shutdown cost the TTC about $3 million in lost revenue.

In a news release issued while Kinnear was speaking to reporters, the TTC said it "values its employees and has made workplace safety its top priority."

source: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/03/25/ttc-negotiations.html

Part of this, I'm certain, is related to the carbon monoxide incident the other year that left a number of maintenance staff permanently disabled with severe health complications. The TTC was not very good about handling that situation from what I read on the case, and I would have to side with the union on this point.
I will side with them on injury pay, however, for sick days, the days need to be fixed per year at full pay (for example, 10 days a year) unless a doctor enters the picture for something more serious than the flu. Sickness beyond those fixed days should not be at full pay unless that doctor intervention prerequisite is met.

TTC Statement Of Facts

Background Facts

1. During negotiations the union did not bargain for an increase in wages for injured employees receiving Worker's Safety Insurance Board (WSIB) benefits. Benefits amounts are determined by the board. TTC unionized employees have always receives 85 per cent of their pay while on WSIB claim. This was not an issue at bargaining and to press for 100 per cent benefits through an unlawful strike is an attempt to open up the Collective Agreement through coercion.

2. The TTC has worked with Union representatives on an Operators Assault Task Force and the Commission has endorsed their recommendations. The Union was represented by members of the Union executive. Cameras are being purchased to install on vehicles and an Operator barrier will be designed with Operator input.

3. The Collective Agreement allows for any dispute to follow an agreed grievance process. That process was put in place so that a fair hearing can take place, and to avoid putting public at any inconvenience. Why is the Union breaking this Collective Agreement?

http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=596798
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The TTC should refuse to give in to the greedy union. If the drivers want to be safe they should accept Operator barriers instead of FULL compensation when injured on the job. TTC workers are NOT doing the public any good while injured as no work is being done. 85% compensation from the WSIB is more than fair. Why not prevent injuries in the first place by using barriers? They would be cheaper in the long run and virtually eliminates the chance of drivers being assaulted. But alas, the Union will never accept this, because safety is probably not their primary concern.

LordMandeep said:

how would GO service be effected by a TTC strike???

I would Imagine much higher ridership from usually empty stations like Bloor and Exhibition...

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Depends. Lots of people transfer from Kipling, Bloor, Danforth, Kennedy, and even Exhibition, to TTC subways and streetcars at these stations. If those transfers are not available, these stations will see LESS people than usual, not more. Exhibition is even less of a station than it already is (well, it's not as badly located as it was when first built, even though its location hasn't changed, the surrounding locale has changed, but the station is still never manned except during the CNE) when the streetcar connections available there are... well, not available. One feeds the other, so when one goes down, both go down. Kipling also becomes unusable for GO when the TTC strikes as the GO Station is accessed via TTC property.

I have to say that 100% injured pay is a bit excessive in my opinion. Especially if it includes sick time and injured time. There are many more dangerous jobs out there that don't receive this kind of benefit.

If it a problem resulting from assaults on TTC staff then maybe they should be addressing the cause and not the result. One poster mentioned driver barriers, has the union voted this down? When staff are assulted maybe there should be a mechanism to compensate the worker at a higher rate than if they, say slipped on a wet floor.

Does someone know what the police union agreement is on this type of situation? If an Officer gets punched or otherwise injured while on duty and has time off what is his/her compensation? And how does that contrast with a more 'typical workplace injury' (slips, falls, etc), and illness.

^^

The funny thing when Greg Kinnear was making those comments he mentioned that drivers were being assaulted due to increased fares, slow or cramped vehicles (essentially poor service) and so he's demanding full pay for sick leave absences. If they do get the pay, that'll inevitably drive up fares, reducing the amount of money for additional service, leading to more assaults on drivers. Vicious little circle there.

Gil said:

^^

The funny thing when Greg Kinnear was making those comments he mentioned that drivers were being assaulted due to increased fares, slow or cramped vehicles (essentially poor service) and so he's demanding full pay for sick leave absences. If they do get the pay, that'll inevitably drive up fares, reducing the amount of money for additional service, leading to more assaults on drivers. Vicious little circle there.

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Well the last budget included money for automation of the Yonge line, so trains can be run 90 seconds apart in rush hour. We can lay off all those drivers to make up for the loss.

vid said:

Streetcars are probably easy, from what I understand you push the lever and hold it in, when you let go it stops. (Or is that the subways?) Buses are more difficult. You need a B class licence and special training.

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The subway uses a lever, streetcars use a pedal. However, the subway lever isn't quite as simple as you describe, the streetcar pedal, however, almost is (there's two pedals, gas and break). However, when it comes to streetcar junctions, some of the switches are manually operated.

TRZ said:

The subway uses a lever, streetcars use a pedal. However, the subway lever isn't quite as simple as you describe, the streetcar pedal, however, almost is (there's two pedals, gas and break). However, when it comes to streetcar junctions, some of the switches are manually operated.

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Ive heard the opposite. Streetcars are harder to drive than the subway cars.