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I’m not sure what the message even is other than something has to change. What is that something?

There is no excuses for police brutality and the police officers who commit it should be dealt with the full force of the law. But maybe, just maybe if there weren’t so many crazy assholes out there that the police have to contend with on a daily basis they might not need to be so forceful. If something needs to change I’d say that would need to be a part of it.

As I said before out of all the arrests they make they kill about 1000 people a year. Not sure what percentage of those are necessary but given only very few incite this kind of reaction it would be a dozen or so over the last decade or more.

The statistics also show that black people are most likely to be murdered by other black people. Another part that also needs to change.

I hope this cop gets found guilty (unless there is some surprise twist to this story which hasn’t come out yet) and perhaps it becomes a turning point for people to stop being violent towards cops and cops stop using unnecessary force and violence towards others.
 

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Or, you know, drive over people in cars, arrest reporters for complying etc.

Maybe if they weren't doing this, I might be able to accept that they have just shot rubber bullets.

Oh, and in LA County, Coronavirus testing clinics have been shut out of retaliation. I'm sure that will make everyone calm.
Well if you are in a car with an angry mob jumping all over your car and smashing your windows your last thought might be for the safety of the person jumping on your bonnet.

It’s a fact whether you believe it or not is irrelevant.

Retaliation or safety of staff? Would you like to go to work in the middle of a riot? You don’t even want to go to work when there is a complete negligence of a chance you might get Coronavirus with a remote chance it might kill you.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
It isn’t wrong.

Theres no data I’ve seen that says blacks are over over represented in deaths.

It’s all the opposite, that they are under represented in deaths compared to crimes committed.

And sorry one anecdote doesn’t make all that data wrong.
So, again, how many white people have been killed in the same way as Floyd? In other words, having non-standard approaches used to arrest someone alleged to have committed a minor crime (only because he looked like the person), and killing him when he wasn't resisting arrest.

The thing about black deaths by cops, maybe look at the data comparing unarmed black deaths by cops compared with unarmed white deaths by cops.


Also, look at the way white people get more lenient sentences than black people (compare Brock Turner's phenomenally lenient sentence compared with the sentences that black people being arrested for marijuana possession). In fact, if you want data, the black population uses marijuana at the slightly lower rates than the white population, but are 4 times more likely to be arrested for possession.

How often are innocent white people scared of the police? This is a regular with the black population.






The anecdote I used shows that not only are the black population more fearful of the police, the population in general know that by stating a person is black on the phone to the police, they are more likely to have the police attend. Why is that? Nah, just an anecdote!
 

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Discussion Starter #47
The whole thing is ridiculous,


So mass rioting and looting (which you call ‘associated reactions’), and which at this point has now led to more death, is acceptable for you if you don’t get what you demand?

Its just the ‘justice’ of the mob.


I don't condone rioting and looting, but I see the oppression of a population within a country worthy of highlighting far more than the looting and rioting.

Perhaps Locke you can tell the population what they should do to protest. Remember, they aren't allowed to even have peaceful protests because aparently that also offends white people. What should they do?
 

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Discussion Starter #49
I’m not sure what the message even is other than something has to change. What is that something?
Are you seriously asking this question? I just need to make sure before I respond.


There is no excuses for police brutality and the police officers who commit it should be dealt with the full force of the law. But maybe, just maybe if there weren’t so many crazy assholes out there that the police have to contend with on a daily basis they might not need to be so forceful. If something needs to change I’d say that would need to be a part of it.
Ah, but there you go excusing it. Why does it take longer to charge this guy than the guy who killed the Australian woman? Why have none of the other police officers being charged yet? Why do you think that, where some police units have focused more on community policing than law enforcement, deaths have plummeted and the community is safer. Police approach is so much of a major part of the issue it is exactly what needs to be dealt with first.


As I said before out of all the arrests they make they kill about 1000 people a year. Not sure what percentage of those are necessary but given only very few incite this kind of reaction it would be a dozen or so over the last decade or more.
Well I suggest you spend some time looking into this. And this reaction is built up over many incidences. This is the pressure valve being released, not the incident that deserved the response.


The statistics also show that black people are most likely to be murdered by other black people. Another part that also needs to change.
Of course. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that black people are pushed into living sketchier lives due to their lower levels of privilege making it harder for them to live lives like others, would it? That for a greater proportion of the black community, their only hope for survival is in the drug trade and gang culture? Nah, it's just because the black community is inherently more violent. That must be it.


Point to note, this is the exact type of thinking that means the black community is more harshly punished for the same crimes and more likely to be killed unarmed by police.
This is exactly why you need to ask the additional question of why this happens, not just that it does.


I hope this cop gets found guilty (unless there is some surprise twist to this story which hasn’t come out yet) and perhaps it becomes a turning point for people to stop being violent towards cops and cops stop using unnecessary force and violence towards others.
...and I also hope the cops that watched him put his knee on a mans neck for 9 minutes and did nothing about it are also found guilty. They are just as responsible for this mans death.







For reading, I suggest you have a look at Camden, New Jersey. They had one of the highest homicide rates in the USA, 87 per 100,000 per year in 2012. In 2018, this decreased to approximately 30 in 2018. Violent crime also plummeted. What was their secret? They focused on social services, schools. Handguns and handcuffs are used as a last resort and shotguns were no longer carried by officers. They are designed as peacemakers, not law enforcement. Huge difference, and the crime stats show this.


If you want data, have a look at what's worked, not just the raw data of what's wrong.
 

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Tremendous
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I’m not going to go back and forth on all the points, I can see you are clearly passionate about it.

What I will say is that I 100% agree with you on the policing approach you described. Community minded policing has been shown to improve crime outcomes and it’s something I completely support.

At the same time I completely support the decriminalisation of drugs which I think would improve outcomes even further.
 

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Finally some big crowds there again so they can get back to some mass shootings.

What a great country.
 

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Discussion Starter #52
I’m not going to go back and forth on all the points, I can see you are clearly passionate about it.

What I will say is that I 100% agree with you on the policing approach you described. Community minded policing has been shown to improve crime outcomes and it’s something I completely support.

At the same time I completely support the decriminalisation of drugs which I think would improve outcomes even further.
This is actually two of the big things that people are generally fighting for and keep getting pushed back on. Many of the peaceful protests over the past few years that have been shot down have been asking for this all.
How many times should peaceful protests continue for no results? Not only that, but their peaceful protests being shot down by major players such as the Vice President.

This has been fought for over many decades and it hasn't been dealt with appropriately by multiple presidents and governors of all colours.
 

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Tremendous
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I don’t know the answer but destroying innocent people’s property and stealing their goods will definitely not achieve anything.
 

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I don’t know the answer but destroying innocent people’s property and stealing their goods will definitely not achieve anything.
same as hong kong
 

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Discussion Starter #55
I don’t know the answer but destroying innocent people’s property and stealing their goods will definitely not achieve anything.

Sure, but you don't know the answer, they don't know the answer, and every answer they come up with is the wrong answer. Not only that, the message they are trying to get across gets muted because apparently they are sending their message in the wrong way.
Can you not see the frustration? Can you not see that the institutionalised racism essentially means that there is not way that their protest will be accepted? Which, ironically, is partially what they are fighting?

Can you not see that if you spend decades protesting peacefully, with no change, that something will give?





I'm also passionate, because we have a similar issue here, and we think we don't. I am passionate because I don't believe that any one race is more violent or more criminal that others, that it is almost always likely to be a systematic issue.
 

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I don't condone rioting and looting, but I see the oppression of a population within a country worthy of highlighting far more than the looting and rioting.

Perhaps Locke you can tell the population what they should do to protest. Remember, they aren't allowed to even have peaceful protests because aparently that also offends white people. What should they do?
Well you posted a meme that implied that rioting and looting are justified, which they are not, and it's certainly not the answer.

People are free to stage protests, who says they can't? But there is a big difference between a protest and just running riot.

Societies need the rule of law, if you don't have that, you're just left with anarchy, which is what you have in these cities now in a limited form.

The perpetuator has been arrested and charged with murder. The wheels of justice are turning and nothing is gained for society by some looters stealing a 75 inch TV.

Also KJ, you were so concerned about coronavirus spreading when the armed, but peaceful protestors objected to the lockdown, but you're strangely quiet on rioters who are bringing about new potential waves of the virus to their states by breaking all rules.
 

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Discussion Starter #58
Well you posted a meme that implied that rioting and looting are justified, which they are not, and it's certainly not the answer.
That meme does not condone rioting and looting.

People are free to stage protests, who says they can't? But there is a big difference between a protest and just running riot.
So why do they get criticised when they do it and this is from people like the Vice President. So, what kind of protest are they allowed to stage that will have an effect, but that they are also able to do. No-one seems to be able to answer this question. You've gone nowhere near answering it.


Societies need the rule of law, if you don't have that, you're just left with anarchy, which is what you have in these cities now in a limited form.
Correct, and that rule of law needs to be applied equally to all members of society. If you don't have that, you're just left with anarchy, which is what you have in these cities now in a limited form. If you want law, apply it evenly and without prejudice. Also, provide a foundation to ensure citizens don't question whether they need to break the rule of law.


I suspect many of the protestors are a-ok with that but the bulk of the population don't like having their town trashed.
Precisely, however I feel it's a negative they need to take because it's less of a negative than fearing for your safety from the very people that are meant to protect you.

Also KJ, you were so concerned about coronavirus spreading when the armed, but peaceful protestors objected to the lockdown, but you're strangely quiet on rioters who are bringing about new potential waves of the virus to their states by breaking all rules.

I am hugely concerned about coronavirus spreading. This will be huge IMO. In saying that, most of these people are wearing masks, leaving hand sanitiser around etc. Also, again, they are protesting for their actual lives and actual freedoms, not this, "I want to go to the hairdresser" freedoms.

Everyone seems so ready to support freedoms, until it's a protest about real freedoms.
 

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That meme does not condone rioting and looting.
Certainly seemed to condone or justify it to me, for that matter, so did you. What was your point otherwise when you said:

For those saying that this is the way they shouldn't protest. It likely wouldn't have been of they didn't get told this each and every time they protested. I think there were even a few on here complaining about at least one of these.

Pretty clear you're saying they should protest 'this way'.

Correct, and that rule of law needs to be applied equally to all members of society. If you don't have that, you're just left with anarchy, which is what you have in these cities now in a limited form. If you want law, apply it evenly and without prejudice. Also, provide a foundation to ensure citizens don't question whether they need to break the rule of law.
Yes it should be applied equally, I don't disagree with that. If it's not, then it should be rectified on the basis of evidence to the contrary.

Precisely, however I feel it's a negative they need to take because it's less of a negative than fearing for your safety from the very people that are meant to protect you.
So, again, your justifying violence.

I am hugely concerned about coronavirus spreading. This will be huge IMO. In saying that, most of these people are wearing masks, leaving hand sanitiser around etc.
COVID-19 safe rioting, looting and violence /s.

Also, again, they are protesting for their actual lives and actual freedoms.
Are they? Deaths from the police in the US are what, about circa 1000 people a year. That's not a major cause of death for any race. Is it even that high considering there are 300 million guns in the US?

85% are not black males 18-35. When you factor in the elevated violent crime rates for those same males, it gets even more murky. Or how about the fact that blacks and hispanic police officers are more likely to shoot blacks than whites?

Now, I'm not saying murderous cops don't need to be locked up - I mean they killed that guy, clear as day. That justice, however, is happening and this reaction is completely disproportionate and counterproductive.
 

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Ah, but there you go excusing it. Why does it take longer to charge this guy than the guy who killed the Australian woman? Why have none of the other police officers being charged yet? Why do you think that, where some police units have focused more on community policing than law enforcement, deaths have plummeted and the community is safer. Police approach is so much of a major part of the issue it is exactly what needs to be dealt with first.

For reading, I suggest you have a look at Camden, New Jersey. They had one of the highest homicide rates in the USA, 87 per 100,000 per year in 2012. In 2018, this decreased to approximately 30 in 2018. Violent crime also plummeted. What was their secret? They focused on social services, schools. Handguns and handcuffs are used as a last resort and shotguns were no longer carried by officers. They are designed as peacemakers, not law enforcement. Huge difference, and the crime stats show this.


If you want data, have a look at what's worked, not just the raw data of what's wrong.
The police don’t cause the underlying issue though, or have the ability to solve it necessarily. Communities are failed in the first instance by their elected politicians at various levels because safety and crime generally speaking is almost always linked to levels of poverty and economic opportunity. the role of police is largely limited to mitigating negative outcomes of combined social policy and the economic environment that give rise to the underlying tension. Throw in a bent copper (or four) and the violence of discontent then understandably becomes about race, but I think this distracts from the issue of poor leadership within government.
 
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