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Discussion Starter #682
Nah, I am saying the same people have been running the place for a very long time so obviously they are not addressing the issues very well. Local Govs have a lot more power in US cities. For eg, our Mayors do NOT control the police force.

As Shaun King recently put it (big spokesperson for BLM). Stop voting top down - King knows that the DNC has failed many in the cities they have managed for many years. That's coming from a very woke outspoken BLM spokesperson.

So what does any of this have to do with my initial question?


There are issues around my original question regardless of who is the party in control of the cities. They are both bad. Funnily enough, this is the entire point!
 

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I can't even remember what your initial question was and I'm not going to go back. The talk, evolved, I guess and you may notice, I'm taking a less active part in all this. It's good for the size of my amygdala :). I find these discussions increasingly tiring and pointless. I think... I can move on.
 

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Discussion Starter #684
The initial question was, why is the black and indigenous population (in Australia and the USA) represented in crime stats far higher than the white population.
 

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I think the main determinant in why black and indigenous populations are far higher represented in crime stats is social class and education rather than purely a racial factor, BUT the roots of the problem do go back hundreds of years. I believe we can break this cycle by encouraging their education and employment which should give black and indigenous people something to look forward to in life and give them a sense of purpose, which in turn should give them a reason not to go out committing crimes.

Look at the stats for low-income white households and low-income black/indigenous households and the statistics for crime and other social problems are mostly VERY similar. But the proportion of black/indigenous people being poor is MUCH higher than white people being poor, and that all goes back to the fact that 200 years ago during peak colonialism, black/indigenous people started with no wealth, while white people controlled the wealth and had some form of employment and education which was not afforded to black and indigenous people.

Racial discrimination until the mid to late 20th century meant that these minorities weren't treated equally in education. Whereas most white people had a fair standard of education in public schools, black/Aboriginal people were generally given a poorer education, and that feeds into the cycle of poverty and crime which exists to this day. It's extremely difficult to get out of that cycle of poverty and crime, no matter if you're black or white, and given that basically all black and indigenous families basically started off with nothing, it makes sense that they have a higher proportion of very low income households and, in turn, a higher representation in crime rates.

I think the race factor adds another dimension to this problem, because when you start off with society's undercurrent of 'Aboriginal people are poorly educated troublemakers who should not be trusted', their self-worth is diminished and I think a lot of them feel they can never become a successful member of society as an Indigenous person, which adds a sense of hopelessness and drives them even more towards partaking in criminal activity...continuing the cycle.

Aboriginal people do face discrimination challenges in the community, I am certain. One shocking example I saw was of Aboriginal people in my area who I personally know are of good repute trying to flag down cabs, but the racist cab drivers just took a wide berth and kept driving. I am sure that that is just the tip of the iceberg. I don't think any of the current forms of preferential treatment by the government in terms of employment or education programs could ever compensate for the discrimination they face in day to day life.
 

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Discussion Starter #686
Correct.

Then you've partially answered the next question. Why can't they climb socioeconomic status like the white population?
 

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KJ - think of Carlos here. Once in, it's very hard to get out because it passes on from the previous generation. And, I think @mubd's post was very good. It's a vicious circle that started in absolute racism in the past, and mutated to class. Something like 30b is thrown at the problem every year and we still can't turn the tide. I honestly don't have the wisdom to solve it. I don't know - empower indigenous leaders to manage those funds and be self-determining with those funds? I don't know the perfect framework to make that happen; ie, one that is air tight. I'm not using this word as an excuse - complex - but, it is indeed complex and homing in on just one thing one see's as the systemic reason? It's far more complex than one political ideology or opinion.

And I don't think 'white' people who are in the same poverty/class trap find it much easier to get out of the trap. They do not get the same level of assistance for aid opportunities to say, tertiary education. I am not claiming indigenous students get free tertiary education but there are a lot more aid programs available. To me, tertiary education is hardly a huge benchmark anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter #688
They do find it easier because they are less likely to get arrested for the same crimes and less likely to be imprisoned for the same crimes.

Unless you feel that a family with a member in prison has the same opportunity as a family all under the one roof?
 

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They do find it easier because they are less likely to get arrested for the same crimes and less likely to be imprisoned for the same crimes.

Unless you feel that a family with a member in prison has the same opportunity as a family all under the one roof?
You think they (indigenous) get arrested more for the same crimes? This may be true? But, where is your evidence?

I've seen reverse situations, where due to anti-social issues, 'white' families got evicted from Homeswest (State Housing WA) far easier than indigenous families. Of course, this is all anecdotal evidence based on personal experience but in my little world, I saw it as a 'truth' at the time I worked there many years ago.

I'm not sure what you meant by the 2nd statement.
 

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Discussion Starter #690
I've posted that evidence a couple of times on US examples. Drug crimes is one area and traffic offences is another.
In Australia, the research is less clear however this paper has a bit: https://aic.gov.au/file/5197/download?token=Vc_aDk-c

An excerpt:
Research by Gallagher and Poletti, cited earlier, examined disparities in sentencing at juvenile courts and found that Aborigenes (sic) and Pacific Islanders received harsher sentences. No research in the adult courts was carried out. It is hoped that the recent move by the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research to record ethnicity of defendants would be helpful in identifying the existence or otherwise of bais against certain groups in court proceedings. Although National Prison Census data revealed over-representations of members of some migrant groups in prisons, no systematic research have been conducted to identify discrimination, if any, against those groups.

We also need to remember, the stolen generation still exists today. It is possible that my adopted sister may have been forcibly taken from her mother purely because she was indigenous. These affects will still be strong in our community and we still haven't resourced the social systems to assist with that.





Regarding my second statement, broken families and a loss of income are the biggest things that impact on being able to have a reduced crime rate and function more in society. The black and indigenous population have had a harder task with this due to the levels of systemic racism.
 

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KJ, That report is 21 years old. And, that disparity was for NSW alone in the juvenile system, not the adult population. So yes, no doubt an issue at the time in NSW. But 21 years can make a difference, I would hope.

Why do you assume broken families in 2020 is due to systemic racism? Where in the system is racism causing this. You have made the claim.
 

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Discussion Starter #692
So what has changed in the last 20 years that means things have changed? I have seen nothing that show that changes have happened and the huge level of incarcerations show that systemic racism hasn't changed.


Again, unless you have evidence as to why the indigenous population are more likely to be criminal, I will continue to come back to systemic racism.

Systemic racism that kept indigenous Australians poorer, meaning they are more likely to be susceptible to criminal activity.
Systemic racism that ensured medical research was focused on the white population, ensuring the Indigenous population was less helped by the health system.
Systemic racism that ensured that social services are more accessible to the wealthy, which is less likely to be an Indigenous person because this systemic racism ensured they stayed poor.


How many generations does it take to catch up when your living family couldn't purchase property because of their skin colour. How many generations does it take to recover from the stolen generation?







Then there is the offence of public drunkenness. Indigenous Women are 10 times more likely to be sent to the watchouse for public drunkenness than white Australian women (hello Melbourne cup). This was at the time Tanya Day died in custody, and her only crime was travelling home drunk on a train. Goodness me.
 

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You've seen nothing that has changed. That's fine KJ, this is your opinion. All I did was read your link (thank you for it) and identified that it was 21 years old and where it did identify an issue? It was very specific and "local". That's all. I see where you are coming from, I see racial issues as well. I personally don't see systematic organised or institutionalized racism in Australia. I do see bigots and racists. But I also see institutions trying to fix things and empower indigenous people. Now, obviously that method needs big reviews. I don't know what the wise answer is. I did say that we need to empower indigenous leaders to take full control of it and to do it ethically and with the proper accountability. That sounds like a simple idea but the reality is? It appears to be complex. 30b a year is not being that helpful and I have to ask why.

You can make the claim that crimes in the indigenous population is due to systemic racism but I don't think you are giving any empirical evidence for that. You made the claim. So your argument is I need evidence to disprove your claim. There's a term for this line of argument. It falls down, TBH.
 

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Discussion Starter #694
Don't hate me for quoting the Guardian. Unfortunately, they're the only resource to look into this data:


During the five year period, 82.55% of all Indigenous people found with a non-indictable quantity of cannabis were pursued through the courts, compared with only 52.29% for the non-Indigenous population, the data compiled by the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research shows.



The info is hard to find, but it absolutely exists. Try looking around.
 

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There are two ways of interpreting some data. I got another link from The Guardian article you posted:


One, police are targeting aboriginal drivers because they are aboriginal. Two, more offences that cover the below target areas are being performed by aboriginal drivers.

233266


The report claims RBT and other data is then used to "predict" Killed or seriously injured collision (KSI) which is higher in the indigenous driver population. Not a good thing and something that needs to be addressed as to how to mitigate. It's not conclusive but possible evidence of a systemic problem in the WA traffic police force. I also realise that is a statement of "policy" and policy can often NOT reflect reality.

My personal opinion of WA traffic cops are they are wankers. Complete wankers, that have become blatant revenue raisers and absolutely do perform profiling, when they target most drivers. Especially motorcycle cops. There appears to be a culture of just pinning people for whatever they can.

We have FOI for a good reason - to make it possible to closely scrutinise things like law enforcement and let's be thankful for that. If there are continued trends that suggest profile targeting based purely on race? I welcome changes for that; obviously.

The conclusion of the WA traffic infringement report, and it does absolutely require further investigation:

233281


BTW, KJ, thanks for a link to some real evidence.
 

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Discussion Starter #696
Ha ha, I saw that article also and have plenty of misgivings. For example, cameras pick up only two types of issues, speeding and red light infringements. And generally in the cities. Speeding and red light infringements get pulled over regardless by police if seen. Also, there are a higher proportion of the population that are indigenous in rural and regional areas where you see fewer cameras.


Cheers
 

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They actually are. This is all tied up to the fact that systemic racism has caused major social issues within the Black community. It's impossible to deal with these issues without dealing with systemic racism and it's also impossible to deal with these issues if you continue to take money away from social services and into policing. I don't quite know why this is so hard to understand.




Except it is impossible to make real change without increasing social services and focusing on helping people rather than criminalising them for the smallest things. It's also impossible to help them with systemic racism still existing.



Police reform is one part of the very large amount of reform needed. Just like helping to stop family violence, police reform is the result of the system. However it is also the result where the system impacts innocent people, rather than people impacting innocent people. Surely you see the difference here.
Ok first of all why is money being taken by the police from social services? Why is it a zero sum game in these discussions? Why does the police services have to be defunded? It makes no sense. Crimes still need to be stopped and investigated. Police are still needed. You don’t make society better by not punishing people who break the law. Justice needs to be served. Sure increase services, and look at appropriate sentencing, these are always in review, but why defund the police?

Agree about the social services, but this is being addressed by closing the gap. There have been improvements in some results in the initiative, but more and better results needed. So they are expanding and updating it.
 

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Just like every large movement that ever existed on all sides of politics.
You dig enough and you'll see the warts.
Again, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.



Maybe, if people weren't so anti fighting against police brutality and racism, there wouldn't be an issue, but here we are.
If you want to look the other way because the means justifies the end, so be it. Not for me here.
 

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Ah, so you are quite extreme. Got it.
You would hate the idea of healthcare for all? Maybe poor people don't deserve good healthcare.
Your idea to deal with issues in society is by policing their outcomes rather than providing services to stop them happening in the first place? That will ensure society functions well and we don't have high crime rates.
Maybe people should pay for Primary and High School as well. we don't want any of that socialism rewarding poor people with an education.




Funnily enough, the countries that have the highest GDP per capita, generally are oil rich Islamic countries or could be seen as social democracies. Countries such as:
Luxembourg, Singapore, Ireland, Switzerland, Norway. Iceland, Netherlands, Denmark, Austria, Germany, Sweden etc. The USA is the odd one out in that list.
i have no idea how you came to this conclusion. Because I questioned your assertion about the term capitalist social democracy? Or were theyjust intentional strawman points?

I’ll address them regardless. Healthcare for all? If the system can support it yes, as it contributes to equal opportunity. Policing outcomes vs providing services... you need both. Education should be free, to ensure equal opportunity for all.

My point was that term ‘capitalist social democracy’ just defines a capitalist society. Capitalism always has services provided by the government where it can’t be effectively provided by private services. That’s just capitalism, not ‘capitalist social democracy’. That’s just an academic term, created to sell the idea of socialism, and to dupe the public in their push towards a socialist system.
 

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@KJBrissy in case you didn’t realise, I’ve consolidated various discussions from other threads by replying in here, as they all seem similar and probably most pertinent to this thread.
 
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