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So the Chaz/Chop zone in Seattle is finally being dismantled by police after four shootings and lawlessness. Sounds like a utopia. Failed experiment in community policing and self organising. Should arrest them all and fine them.

Seattle mayor should hang her head in shame and walked out the door. Especially for her comment describing the insurrection as ‘the summer of love’.

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You're sounding a bit like the CCP and what they are doing with Hong Kong Protesters. Arrest and fine all of them really? The zone was never going to last and the police have a job to do but they need to reform and do their policing in a way that is different to how they have been doing it.
 

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You're sounding a bit like the CCP and what they are doing with Hong Kong Protesters. Arrest and fine all of them really? The zone was never going to last and the police have a job to do but they need to reform and do their policing in a way that is different to how they have been doing it.
Well the protestors did unlawful and illegal acts, and it’s an illegal gathering. So you’re equating the democratically elected government and the rule of law to authoritarian CCP. Massive illogical leap.
 

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Well the protestors did unlawful and illegal acts, and it’s an illegal gathering. So you’re equating the democratically elected government and the rule of law to authoritarian CCP. Massive illogical leap.
The Chinese and Hong Kong Governments will say their protestors did unlawful and illegal acts, and it’s an illegal gathering. It is lucky the US has some good checks and balances trying to prevent it heading towards an an authoritarian state. Pity Trump does not respect or understand much about those checks and balances.
 

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Again, sounds like none of you actually know, or deliberately ignore, what is meant by defunding the police.

You do realise the Seattle CHOP zone was not this, right?


(Good to see the zone removed though, BTW, before you have a crack at that.)
Well here's the thing. The "educated" such as retired professor Angela Davis, clearly lays out defunding the police is about redirection of funding to social services which then negates the need for arms bearing law enforcement. She at least tries to make it less about race, I guess. Long sound ISO's in 5 pts but worth the listen (hope this is the right order):


But she sure makes it all about feminism and Hetero-patriarchy (and I had to look that one up and no surprise, my thoughts were correct about the definition).

Now this all aligns deeply with the core mission statement of BLM. The lay-person on the street absolutely thinks BLM is about white police violence mostly perpetrated towards black men in America, on the streets. The BLM mission statement is much about Marxist ideology and modern feminism theory. This is not surprising given it's founders were from this ideological background. They were not angry black men. They loosely say at the beginning of this mission statement that it was chapter groups that formed to intervene in violence towards the black community by vigilantes and that State but if you watch the YouTube TED talks of the founding women? This is glossed over and now they mention it in the mission statement more as a precursor to the 20 or so following paragraphs of the statement that are clearly more about Left spectrum Marxist, Social Justice and feminist ideology.


They also have an issue with the "Western" Nuclear family structure. Quote,"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.". I would argue that "patriarchy" (the male role in the family) and 'matriarchy" (the female role in the family) are equally vital. It does not go into detail so one can only presume what they actually mean but the context is pretty clear in this guys mind. A black American, Marcellus Wiley, that believes his mission statement is quite the opposite - to be a father and family man and in his mind, gives good reason when he starts quoting his statistics on fatherless black Americans:


So here's the thing - everyone I know thinks that Black Lives absolutely do matter, that there are clear examples of police brutality that is racist in its intent. No one is denying this. But as far as the actual BLM movement goes, it's not even on their official radar.
 

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It's kind of adorable how conservatives overestimate the influence of actual communists in the USA. It's like going back to the 1950s McCarthy era all over again but instead of there being actual reasons to suspect there might be communists about like the New Deal, the existence of a mass-member communist party, and socialist/anti-colonial revolutions happening around the world, it's just been 40 years of the same right-wing neoliberals being in power everywhere the whole time and they've literally destroyed any kind of left-wing political alternative from the environmental movement to the anti-war movement to the labour movement...You are winning!! Trump's presidency is the apotheosis, the zenith of decades-long trends of your policies and politics being put into effect. Americans are living in a billionaire's paradise. It's an oligarchic system in which the richest 400 individuals own more wealth than the bottom 150,000,000 (150 million) individuals. That's the result of a consistent bipartisan approach to policy in favour of the super-rich from Ronald Reagan 1980 to Donald Trump today. The Democratic party, sure there are a handful of radicals and it seemed for a moment like the social democrats surrounding Bernie Sanders COULD have taken over earlier in 2020 or in 2016, but they failed because the pro-corporate big business faction of the Democrats is so much bigger and more powerful and able to determine the direction of the party - i.e. it's a weaker version of the Republicans with the same policies just said in slightly more polite way.

"Sure we agree we need to build a wall, and we'll deport millions of migrants, but we just won't call them nasty names while we're doing exactly the same things. And of course, we need to support Wall Street and gift the big banks trillions in bailout money due to COVID19 just like we did in 2008, but we're going to look really sad when we hand them the big cheque and then when our supporters get angry at us we're going to pretend that we tried really hard not to cut their Medicare and pensions while we did exactly what the Republicans did."

The Black Lives Matter movement is not some sort of corporation with a headquarters you can just call up and demand to speak to the manager or the CEO or something. It's activists often call it a 'leaderless movement'. Now, that's an exaggeration. All social movements by their nature eventually experience a development where the majority of the protesters go home and do something else, i.e. the movement disperses, and then the small minority of the most committed/advanced/ideologically engaged protesters (no more than 15% of the original crowd) develop into a mixture of more formal organisations/institutions like say an NGO or a charity, or a political party etc. The so-called 'founders' of the BLM movement who coined the hashtag used on social media back in 2014 are all upper class highly educated NGO workers. They are not revolutionary Marxists. That suggestion is hilarious and ridiculous. They are members of the professional-managerial class - the kind of people who aren't quite in the actual capitalist class, but who also do not share the interests of the mass of the working-class/underclass population. They live very comfortable lives under capitalism, unlike most Black Americans who are either working class or in the underclass. Their politics is that of representation. They are huge fans of what Richard Nixon called Black Capitalism. They love Oprah, Obama, Beyonce etc because these mis-leaders of the Black sections of the capitalist class offer movements like BLM a false hope that they can succeed under capitalism if they just work harder, if they just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, if they just practice their white voice and always do what the nice police officers say etc etc. The idea that these people are communist revolutionaries is ridiculous.

Now, are they Marxists in the sense that they've read Marx's works and think that the analytical framework they offer is a useful way to understand the social world? Maybe, but I really doubt it. They don't talk about class, or capitalism, primarily. They talk about race and white supremacy. They erase the distinction between a Black member of the underclass on the south side of Chicago or the plantations of the south with a multi-millionaire like Barack Obama or Jay-Z. As though these two had the same political interests and seek the same kind of change to the world in order to better their position within it. Nope, they're two fundamentally distinct demographics with different interests. They also don't talk about why socialism and a politics centred on the potential power of the multi-racial working-class as a unified political subject seeking to transform society is the answer to the problems facing the Black underclass and working class. That's what would give them away as Marxists. They don't do that. They talk instead about why there aren't more Black trans queer CEOs on the boards of corporations. Corporations pay them tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in consulting fees to use this bullshit as a way to sweep these problems under the rug and make it look like something is being done in response to the rioting etc.

Here's a pretty good podcast that talks about why this whole approach about making working-class white people feel guilty about racism without offering any strategy for everyone to changing things - is a political dead end:
 

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PE, the original founders of the BLM are absolutely self-professed Marxists. Whatever that personally means to them is open to debate. Who said they are revolutionary? I suspect they would want an economic revolution, but who the **** really knows what goes on in their "Boule" minds? Not convinced? Go watch their informative YouTube videos.

You know? Basically what you said, in other words, about the Black Elite, the Boule? You're right. I just put it in another way. BTW, I'm not really what you would call a Conservative, but whatever.
 

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Discussion Starter #731
@Hexter, I can't seem to get the mp3s to work.

However if your argument is that it's sus that the people who are most likely to be discriminated by police are the ones trying to propose something different, I can't see the problem to be honest. Why wouldn't they be the ones leading the push for change?


Regarding the Western Nuclear family, are you now against high levels of care outside a nuclear family? What this is pushing against is that the only major care you get in conservative ideologies is through the nuclear family which is a horrible thought. Society should care for all and there are many cases where there is abuse within the nuclear family and finding help outside of this is very difficult so people are trapped. Also, what about those with no nuclear family left? They still need a family to belong to. It should be irrelevant as to the make up of this family also.

I see my church as a family in addition to my nuclear family. I will not, and should not, depend exclusively on my nuclear family.





Want to know the best way to keep families together? Improve access to eductaion and wealth. The best way to do this? Remove discrimination and inequality. So even if you are a fan of the nuclear family, you should be fighting for equality.
 

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That's a shame about the mp3's. They work in Chrome on a PC (confirmed).

Here are all clips from NA show No.1257. There are 5 there of Angela Davis


Of course I am NOT against high levels of care outside a Nuclear family. That is a crazy assumption. I'm merely relaying other's that think the stability of a functional Nuclear family, statistically anyway, shows that this has a huge positive benefit. That's all. I also adhere to the old adage that it takes a village to raise a child because the social development of a child also requires social interaction from other stable influences. But at the same time? The first level of nurture and care in an ideal world should be the parents.

To be blunt - I think a good mother figure and a good father figure are essential to the nurturing of a child and the most important influence. Call me old fashion, Conservative in this regard, I don't care, but I do really think that if a child is brought up in a stable family (with all it's human flaws) and by a functioning mother and father, that child has a damn good chance of getting a good start in life. Yes, I am being very general here, and deliberately so. And no, I am not saying other "non-traditional" family structures are necessarily inferior.

I am saying that in context of Black America? Stats show time and time again, that an African American family that has a stable mother and father (which means they have a stable income as well), that most likely, the children will have a great chance to have a better life. And again, I am generalizing. And, I accept that due to the nature of things, the reality is that African American families that experience this "traditional" stability is far lower than other demographics due to many things outside their control, in many instances.
 

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Discussion Starter #733
My previous comment still stands, and, other than the Final MP3, it actually concerns me if her other comments produce significant controversy. They seem quite level headed and accurate to me 🤷‍♂️
 

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Does anybody?
Yeah the founders speak for this movement, And the BLM website doesn’t any have resources on Defund the Police. Just a petition and a few paragraphs. It’s left to it’s blinded supporters to fill in the gaps on what they think it should mean.

The BLM movement has turned out to be the most ridiculous political shit show in half a century, and I don’t know why anyone is supporting it. Apart from fellow socialists of course.

Trumps speech at Mt Rushmore was 100% spot on.
 

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Discussion Starter #735
Trumps speech at Mt Rushmore was 100% spot on.
If you really think that then we really are in trouble! One of the most divisive speeches in a very long time!



Also, the founders set it up, but from what I understand (I have absolutely no interest in getting involved with BLM), there are local chapters that essentially take on the name and aren't controlled in any way. Therefore, the founders can speak for their intent, but not as a whole as they have relinquished that by opening it up.
 

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How was it divisive? He was uniting the country against rioters, vandalists and looters. I’d expect the same from any president.
 

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Trump uniting the country? Ha, that's a good one!
 

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How was it divisive? He was uniting the country against rioters, vandalists and looters. I’d expect the same from any president.
He was uniting his dwindling racist enabling base. Vast majority of BLM are not rioters, looters or vandals.
 

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Discussion Starter #739 (Edited)
How was it divisive? He was uniting the country against rioters, vandalists and looters. I’d expect the same from any president.
I'm amazed at how removed from reality some people can be.

What about the people that feel victimised by historic figure Trump called heros? Is he unifying those Americans also? Or is it ok not to unify if they don't agree with Trump?
But isn't that the definition of disunity?


There are also a few areas of disunity spoken as if it's unity:
"We want free and open debate, not speech codes and cancel culture.
We embrace tolerance, not prejudice."


This is absolute rubbish. He wants free and open debate, unless that debate is about the value of statues of evil people of history such as Robert E Lee or Columbus (someone who never set foot in the USA and was convicted for his horrendous crimes so it has nothing to do with modern day morality).
You notice his speech only mentioned the statues of people that obviously shouldn't have been removed? Yeah, because it's a strawman. He's singling out those who want some statues removed by highlighting the one's that aren't obvious for removal. Has he ever come out and supported the removal of any statue?

Aso, the Garden of American Heros is again, a dig at the concept of removing any statue, by saying he will build more!
 
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