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I'm amazed at how removed from reality some people can be.

What about the people that feel victimised by historic figure Trump called heros? Is he unifying those Americans also? Or is it ok not to unify if they don't agree with Trump?
But isn't that the definition of disunity?


There are also a few areas of disunity spoken as if it's unity:
"We want free and open debate, not speech codes and cancel culture.
We embrace tolerance, not prejudice."


This is absolute rubbish. He wants free and open debate, unless that debate is about the value of statues of evil people of history such as Robert E Lee or Columbus (someone who never set foot in the USA and was convicted for his horrendous crimes so it has nothing to do with modern day morality).
You notice his speech only mentioned the statues of people that obviously shouldn't have been removed? Yeah, because it's a strawman. He's singling out those who want some statues removed by highlighting the one's that aren't obvious for removal. Has he ever come out and supported the removal of any statue?

Aso, the Garden of American Heros is again, a dig at the concept of removing any statue, by saying he will build more!
Removed from reality? You guys are ridiculously brainwashed.

The fact that you support the extreme left BML movement says as much.

Yes the free and open debate. Not pulling the statues down. Free and open debate means asking the majority what they want, not destroying and vandalising. Ask the majority in the US if they want statues of past presidents and figures pulled down, I think we know what the answer will be, which is why you have vandalists doing it.

So yes he is unifying everyone against extremists, and so he should. He should not support anti American anti democratic political extremists.
 

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I wonder if people caught ex West Indies cricketer and now commentator Michael Holding's moving comments on racism.


‘Re educate the human race’. It would be funny if it’s not scary people actually think in this totalitarian way.
 

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He didn’t refer to BLM in his speech.
He is too cunning for that but If you think Trump unites people why do you think America is so divided now? He is playing culture wars to try and take attention away from the virus crisis.
 

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Discussion Starter #745
Removed from reality? You guys are ridiculously brainwashed.

The fact that you support the extreme left BML movement says as much.

Yes the free and open debate. Not pulling the statues down. Free and open debate means asking the majority what they want, not destroying and vandalising. Ask the majority in the US if they want statues of past presidents and figures pulled down, I think we know what the answer will be, which is why you have vandalists doing it.

So yes he is unifying everyone against extremists, and so he should. He should not support anti American anti democratic political extremists.
I support the movement, not the organisation.
Free and open debate is not a majority rules situation.

Just like you support the family unit and I assume you support the republicans and Trump but you sure as hell don't seem to mind Trump and his past regarding his family unit.

You seem happy to ignore the leadership where it suits you and happy to weaponise it when it suits you!
 

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Discussion Starter #746
Also, the number of people here trying to say that Andrews was at fault because even though he came out telling people not to protest, the feeling and the theme of his words meant that it's his fault people were lax.

Yet when it comes to Trump, you aren't allowed to look at the theme and the feeling of his words, only his exact words.



Definition of hypocrisy!
 

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My previous comment still stands, and, other than the Final MP3, it actually concerns me if her other comments produce significant controversy. They seem quite level headed and accurate to me 🤷‍♂️
Oh well, we are just other sides of the coin... again. To me, she's off the planet. She's talking out of her arse. The only redeeming feature is she did not emphasis it as a race problem.
 

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He is too cunning for that but If you think Trump unites people why do you think America is so divided now? He is playing culture wars to try and take attention away from the virus crisis.
Umm, because the DNC, a few days after his inauguration, from the likes of Al Sharpton and Co., made it their mission to impeach him based on a complete Russia hoax? I agree in that Trump is a divisive figure but again, Orange Man Bad and the actions of the DNC and their MSM slaves has absolutely nothing to do with the sorry state of partisan America? Nah, nothing at all. It's both. The Donald and the even the sicker DNC. Sorry state of affairs.
 

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I support the movement, not the organisation.
Free and open debate is not a majority rules situation.

Just like you support the family unit and I assume you support the republicans and Trump but you sure as hell don't seem to mind Trump and his past regarding his family unit.

You seem happy to ignore the leadership where it suits you and happy to weaponise it when it suits you!
What's the BLM movement to you, then? A 100% reflection of their mission statement? Or just parts of it? What does BLM mean to you?

I'll start on the positive side of it - as the lay person would probably sum the movement up - standing up for systemic state based and institutional racism especially against black men. If that's all true, no one would be against supporting it. And, I think that's what average Joe and Jane all think the movement is. I personally just don't think it's that true. I am not saying there are no small minded racist and bigoted people out there but if your benchmark is Robin DiAngelo and her book, White Fragility? God help you. There's a reason why this book is a top seller and it's not for sound reasons.

I digress on the DiAngelo angle but if you are interested to find out more, check a podcast called "Block and Reported" by Katie Herzog and Jesse Singal. "White Fragility" Is A Completely Bizarre And Pernicious Book And It's A Terrible Sign That So Many Americans Love It Both very very Progressive on the political spectrum. Yes, my sources are not all Infowars and Alex Jones (though that guy is entertaining).

You know, I have to ask how much real time most here go out and research their views? I'm not trying to come across as arrogant. I know you do a little, KJ and have given me some good podcasts to look up. But I do have to ask the question for most others here. I mean, who here has even heard of Robin DiAngelo and her very topical book, White Fragility?

But, when one researches the BLM movement - I see a whole lot of other layers. No theremin music or conspiracy shit here - just good old fashion research and background checking. You know, like checking out their own website and such. Watching video's of the founders. It's a recent movement. I'm sure there has been project scope creep and mutation but at the same time, like any movement, I tend to go check it out. Why would I just take what the MSM and the sheep think? Am I not allowed to inquire?

Well I can tell it sits well within the spectrum of out there Left wing political ideology. Hey, that's all fine and it's a free country but to me it sways far from any centrist position. Even if I argue from a centrist position, the reaction is that my position is really a far-right position. Whatever, Orange is the new Black and the idea we had a Standard Bell curve distribution on political positions left a long time ago. It seems anyone just a little right of that previous established Center position is now something completely different and a threat to society.
 

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Also, the number of people here trying to say that Andrews was at fault because even though he came out telling people not to protest, the feeling and the theme of his words meant that it's his fault people were lax.

Yet when it comes to Trump, you aren't allowed to look at the theme and the feeling of his words, only his exact words.



Definition of hypocrisy!
Nice try. Youre forever the pot calling the kettle black.

I’ll remind you that you’re the one arguing against things like Trump saying ‘there are good people on both sides’, and saying that all words contributed in some way to the Christchurch terrorist attack, then recently swapping your stance and saying the opposite and everyone have to take politicians on their EXACT words. You’re the one doing this, You’re the hypocrite.

And I never said Dan Andrews didn’t say ‘don’t go to the protests’, I said his messaging was weak and equivocal on it.

And regardless whether you look at Trumps Mt Rushmore speech for its exact words or it’s underlying message. They’re saying the same thing, it’s a very pro America speech. And it should be from the President on the 4th July in front of the national icon.
 

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Discussion Starter #751
What's the BLM movement to you, then? A 100% reflection of their mission statement? Or just parts of it? What does BLM mean to you?

I'll start on the positive side of it - as the lay person would probably sum the movement up - standing up for systemic state based and institutional racism especially against black men. If that's all true, no one would be against supporting it. And, I think that's what average Joe and Jane all think the movement is. I personally just don't think it's that true. I am not saying there are no small minded racist and bigoted people out there but if your benchmark is Robin DiAngelo and her book, White Fragility? God help you. There's a reason why this book is a top seller and it's not for sound reasons.
BLM to me, at it's core, is about addressing systemic racism that is against people of colour in places such as the USA and Australia to name a few. That's the element I support and that is the element I am assuming all who attended the protests and aligns with the message today, supports.

Anything about preferred economic and social structure to achieve this, there will likely be significant disagreement, and therefore, despite the beliefs of the founders, isn't a core element of the movement.

If you are able to point to an international organisation that brings people together in speaking against systemic racism that doesn't have other controversial views? Remember the phrase, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. The shared enemy is systemic racism.
 

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Discussion Starter #752
Nice try. Youre forever the pot calling the kettle black.

I’ll remind you that you’re the one arguing against things like Trump saying ‘there are good people on both sides’, and saying that all words contributed in some way to the Christchurch terrorist attack, then recently swapping your stance and saying the opposite and everyone have to take politicians on their EXACT words. You’re the one doing this, You’re the hypocrite.

And I never said Dan Andrews didn’t say ‘don’t go to the protests’, I said his messaging was weak and equivocal on it.

And regardless whether you look at Trumps Mt Rushmore speech for its exact words or it’s underlying message. They’re saying the same thing, it’s a very pro America speech. And it should be from the President on the 4th July in front of the national icon.
Trump refusing to call out abhorrent behaviour is ok? To just come out and say the other side is bad too, makes it all ok?
He is forever going in hard against criminal lefties but never the criminals from the right


I have gone on the theme of what is said all along, and I have also said that Andrews was openly honest and his continual theme was separation, don't protest and stay at home if you don't need to be out. Your only whinge is that he didn't fine everyone which actually would have been more dangerous from a COVID spread perspective.


I've always read deeper into what people say. I was pointing out that you refuse to, but only where it suits.
 

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Trump refusing to call out abhorrent behaviour is ok? To just come out and say the other side is bad too, makes it all ok?
He is forever going in hard against criminal lefties but never the criminals from the right


I have gone on the theme of what is said all along, and I have also said that Andrews was openly honest and his continual theme was separation, don't protest and stay at home if you don't need to be out. Your only whinge is that he didn't fine everyone which actually would have been more dangerous from a COVID spread perspective.


I've always read deeper into what people say. I was pointing out that you refuse to, but only where it suits.
Maybe you need to broaden your news.

Trump has many times called out things like far right white supremacists as being unAmerican etc

But you won’t read about that in the left wing main stream media.
 

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Discussion Starter #754
Yeah, but only when they shoot up a bunch of people. Not when they're just vocally racist.

Lol. Left wing media. Since when is Fox and Sky News left wing media? Please don't say it is!
 

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I support the movement, not the organisation.
Free and open debate is not a majority rules situation.

Just like you support the family unit and I assume you support the republicans and Trump but you sure as hell don't seem to mind Trump and his past regarding his family unit.

You seem happy to ignore the leadership where it suits you and happy to weaponise it when it suits you!
I have no idea what your point is. You’re clutching at abstract issues.

Of course I support the family unit. Who in their right mind doesn’t think family unit is a good thing?

Yes I agree with some of what Trump and says, and also disagree with some of what Trump says. Why is that an issue. I’d expect everyone to approach each issue on its merit regardless of who is saying it, and not blindly just agree with anyone.

On this issue he is spot on.

If I was a US citizen, there is no way I would support the Democrats at this point in time. They have lost their way. The republicans are not much better right now, but if I were American they would get my vote by default.

The most symbolic image I have seen recently is the image of Pelosi and the Democrats taking a knee, Supporting a movement which has seen killing, violence, rioting and looting. And not actively speaking out against what has been happening. Shameful stuff. But not unexpected after what we have seen from them over the last 4 years.
 

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Discussion Starter #756
What I am saying is, you can have support for the ideas, even if the leaders have a different opinion to you.
You admit that you would support an organisation despite their faults.
Many people support BLM despite the faults of their organisation.




You have assumed that if you can discredit the leaders of BLM, you discredit the whole of BLM and therefore anything they stand for. Therefore nothing good could ever come from it. Your post above suggests that you don't have the same view regarding the Republican Party, so why hold a different group to a higher bar?


Taking a knee is in no way supporting killing, violence, rioting and looting. That's as bizarre as saying that voting Republican at the last election means you are supporting the dismantling of the family unit because divorce is now something positive. Obviously ludicrously wrong.
 

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So binary and absolute. I think all we are saying, and as I pointed out before that the normal lay person identifies BLM as the more simple things you point out? I said no one would disagree with that (assuming all true of course but that's another argument). Hey, Hitler built some good shit and awesome tech but the underlying movement was shit. All I am saying is that the underlying BLM movement is a whole lot more than about police brutality to black men. Their mission statement hardly alludes to what most lay people identify the movement as. That's all I am saying. To be blunt, BLM is a political machine and fund raiser for god knows what. It absolutely is a very very Left organization bound in very hard Left ideology.

Hey, that's fine if you identify with the watered down idea of it and most people do. I just think when you start to dig it's good to know what you are actually supporting. Remember, this is a very new movement so mutation is hardly set in.
 

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Agreed, just like saying 'All Lives Matter' is not supporting white supremacy or racism
Lots of those who do make a big deal about 'All Lives Matter' seem racist to me or don't care if they enable it or seem desperate to downplay racism or invalidate it altogether.
 

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Umm, because the DNC, a few days after his inauguration, from the likes of Al Sharpton and Co., made it their mission to impeach him based on a complete Russia hoax? I agree in that Trump is a divisive figure but again, Orange Man Bad and the actions of the DNC and their MSM slaves has absolutely nothing to do with the sorry state of partisan America? Nah, nothing at all. It's both. The Donald and the even the sicker DNC. Sorry state of affairs.
Russian political interference in US politics is a fact and well proven. Trump didn't create partisan politics he has further added to its strengthening and uses it to enhance his political positions.
 
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