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So, again, how many white people have been killed in the same way as Floyd? In other words, having non-standard approaches used to arrest someone alleged to have committed a minor crime (only because he looked like the person), and killing him when he wasn't resisting arrest.

The thing about black deaths by cops, maybe look at the data comparing unarmed black deaths by cops compared with unarmed white deaths by cops.


Also, look at the way white people get more lenient sentences than black people (compare Brock Turner's phenomenally lenient sentence compared with the sentences that black people being arrested for marijuana possession). In fact, if you want data, the black population uses marijuana at the slightly lower rates than the white population, but are 4 times more likely to be arrested for possession.

How often are innocent white people scared of the police? This is a regular with the black population.






The anecdote I used shows that not only are the black population more fearful of the police, the population in general know that by stating a person is black on the phone to the police, they are more likely to have the police attend. Why is that? Nah, just an anecdote!
Don’t know the answer to many of your conflating questions. I don’t know how many have been killed by being held down with a knee on their neck.

You’re probably right with the unarmed stat, I don’t have those figures. sounds like it could a true. But this is a very thin way to slice the data.

When you say these things but overlook the overriding fact that blacks are heavily over represented in crime and violent crime.

As I said I think the issue is compounded by America’s gun laws.
 

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Discussion Starter #62
When you say these things but overlook the overriding fact that blacks are heavily over represented in crime and violent crime.

Which comes to my point, unless you believe that black Americans are inherently more violent or more criminal, what's the reason for this? Maybe it's just that as a race they are inherently more lazy? Well that's not going to cut it as an answer as you will need some pretty impressive studies to back your point on that one.

I will argue, as many studies have, that systemic racism over the last 400 years which has never been dealt with is the most likely answer. It's an issue in Australia also, but it's more than 200 years instead. We keep blaming them for misbehaving, but don't try to understand why it's more likely.


But this allows the data to reinforce these ideas. The black population is more likely to be a criminal, therefore this black person here is more likely to be a criminal. Black people are more likely to shoot black people, therefore this black person is more likely to carry than this white guy (again, a baseless extension that is easy to make).


Just using the data but not understanding the origins of the data will entrench racism, even if it's unintended. The many stories, like the woman who was shot after she knocked on a persons house looking for help after her car broke down. Would a white person have been shot? Who knows, but this seems to happen surprisingly fewer times.
 

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Discussion Starter #63
The police don’t cause the underlying issue though, or have the ability to solve it necessarily. Communities are failed in the first instance by their elected politicians at various levels because safety and crime generally speaking is almost always linked to levels of poverty and economic opportunity. the role of police is largely limited to mitigating negative outcomes of combined social policy and the economic environment that give rise to the underlying tension. Throw in a bent copper (or four) and the violence of discontent then understandably becomes about race, but I think this distracts from the issue of poor leadership within government.
The example of Camden, New Jersey says otherwise.
 

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Certainly seemed to condone or justify it to me, for that matter, so did you. What was your point otherwise when you said:

For those saying that this is the way they shouldn't protest. It likely wouldn't have been of they didn't get told this each and every time they protested. I think there were even a few on here complaining about at least one of these.

Pretty clear you're saying they should protest 'this way'.
I'm not going to condone it, but I'm not blaming either. My point is, they've been blocked from every other means of protest (another thing I don't condone), what do you expect them to do? Just accept they've lost and submit to the white man? I don't condone that either!

Yes it should be applied equally, I don't disagree with that. If it's not, then it should be rectified on the basis of evidence to the contrary.
Which is exactly what has been protested over, and ignored, for decades or more. Again I ask, what kind of protest would you suggest that would actually work. The thing is, the system and powerful people have removed all ability to identify where people have been wronged, so when they do go overboard, it's again their fault. It's a situation which they can never win in, but apparently there is no issue with racism and no privilege in the USA.

So, again, your justifying violence.
Nope, not at all. Again I ask, if you regularly feared for your life, and no one was listening to you and instead telling you to be silent, what would you do?


COVID-19 safe rioting, looting and violence /s.
I know you are being sarcastic, but there are levels of desperation. Should they have just ignored that this just happened in one of the most blatant displays of recent history? Should they just ignore that everything they've done in the past has not worked and instead they were told to be silent?

Are they? Deaths from the police in the US are what, about circa 1000 people a year. That's not a major cause of death for any race. Is it even that high considering there are 300 million guns in the US?
What about the seriously injured? What about the deaths in prison? What about the proportionally heavy penalties compared to the white population? The stats you have only show part of the story.


85% are not black males 18-35. When you factor in the elevated violent crime rates for those same males, it gets even more murky. Or how about the fact that blacks and hispanic police officers are more likely to shoot blacks than whites?
They are still police officers, right? Also, freedoms are more than just lives. It's about being able to work around the block in a suburbs and not have to take your daughter and dog with you to avoid the cops being called. As I said, it's more than just the stats.

There is only once in my life where I was in a situation where it felt my skin colour made me less safe than the people around me. This is how many black Americans talk about their lives, that they feel less safe purely because of the colour of their skin. That's not in the raw data, because it's qualitative, but that qualitative data flows through to explain some of the quantitative data.

Now, I'm not saying murderous cops don't need to be locked up - I mean they killed that guy, clear as day. That justice, however, is happening and this reaction is completely disproportionate and counterproductive.

What about the previous reactions (in the meme) that were also called disproportionate and counterproductive? Why should they listen to people who say their actions are disproportionate and counterproductive, when it doesn't matter what they do, it's always disproportionate and counterproductive.
 

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I'm not going to condone it, but I'm not blaming either.
So you're not going to blame people for say, literally destroying his shops?

That's nice.
Which is exactly what has been protested over, and ignored, for decades or more. Again I ask, what kind of protest would you suggest that would actually work.
The kind that doesn't involve this:






That's not 'making your point', that's not converting anyone to your cause, quite the contrary.
 

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to the usual right wing twats trying to explain away systemic racism and it's complex manifestations for fucks sake as usual and true to form. You're a bunch of cowards.
 

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Which comes to my point, unless you believe that black Americans are inherently more violent or more criminal, what's the reason for this? Maybe it's just that as a race they are inherently more lazy? Well that's not going to cut it as an answer as you will need some pretty impressive studies to back your point on that one.

I will argue, as many studies have, that systemic racism over the last 400 years which has never been dealt with is the most likely answer. It's an issue in Australia also, but it's more than 200 years instead. We keep blaming them for misbehaving, but don't try to understand why it's more likely.


But this allows the data to reinforce these ideas. The black population is more likely to be a criminal, therefore this black person here is more likely to be a criminal. Black people are more likely to shoot black people, therefore this black person is more likely to carry than this white guy (again, a baseless extension that is easy to make).


Just using the data but not understanding the origins of the data will entrench racism, even if it's unintended. The many stories, like the woman who was shot after she knocked on a persons house looking for help after her car broke down. Would a white person have been shot? Who knows, but this seems to happen surprisingly fewer times.
You used the anecdote of Justine Damond as the example. How many other white people can you name that have suffered from police brutality? ..seeing as there are many more white people in numbers that experience it. My point is that there’s probably other reasons why you think it is a race issue. That’s your cognitive bias working. Now I’m not saying that there aren’t issues of race that happen or that police brutality doesn’t happen. But it’s not racism that is the overwhelming underlying cause here.

And no I don’t really subscribe to the idea that race causes meaningful difference in outcomes. But what does impact outcomes is culture. That is where the difference is and where any solution could stem from.
 

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There is an international thread on this topic, why it's been brought here is beyond me.
 

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Discussion Starter #69
So you're not going to blame people for say, literally beating this shop-owner unconscious and destroying his shop?

That's nice.







The kind that doesn't involve this:






That's not 'making your point', that's not converting anyone to your cause, quite the contrary.


I don't condone it at all. But you've never stated what they should do instead.
 

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I don't know about anyone else but I have not seen a comprehensive, clean dataset of statistics available to be sliced and analysed. Data is available from different organisations about different aspects of crime and law enforcement which makes it difficult to argue outright that the data explains one thing or another. Every apparent "fact" drawn from the data has a multitude of caveats.

Having said that, throwing a few numbers at people protesting in the streets isn't going to change their minds anyway when those numbers don't reflect their lived experiences. It's very easy for us to sit here and try to explain things away with a few numbers but we aren't the ones who are repeatedly stopped and frisked on our way to the grocery store. Mostly, we aren't living in poor communities where every second person we know has had a stint in jail, probably for a relatively minor offence. We also don't have to listen to a presidential candidate (and now current president) say five members of our community were likely still guilty of rape even after their convictions had been vacated on DNA evidence.

Sure rioting is bad and helps nobody, but if people don't actually try to understand other people's points of view and the underlying causes of these sorts of things then they will just continue to happen.
 

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to the usual right wing twats trying to explain away systemic racism and it's complex manifestations for fucks sake as usual and true to form. You're a bunch of cowards.
Ho-hum.

Usual labels and personal insults when you're argument amounts to nothing but 'feelings'. Try applying reason sometimes Kelli.
 
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I don't condone it at all. But you've never stated what they should do instead.
Well you said you don't blame them.

Beat up someone - KJ won't blame you, kill them - KJ won't blame you.

I've said they should peacefully protest and if no one listens, maybe some self-reflection is in order.
 

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@Tyson

Yeah which is why I haven’t given any data on it. But some trends seem true across all, and that is that blacks are over represented in crime especially violent crime. And they are also over represented in deaths to population, but not proportion to violent crime.

Comparing deaths to population gives a misleading view.

Yes it’s easy to talk about it when you haven’t lived it. And not taking way from anyone’s experience, but lived experience gives you subjective qualitative data. Whereas quant data allows for objectivity. It’s when both are used together that gets the best overall picture.
 

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There is an international thread on this topic, why it's been brought here is beyond me.
Because the left loves this stuff. This is what it's all about for them - race, sex, and any pick of class of 'victim' that you want. It will never end.
 

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Discussion Starter #75
You used the anecdote of Justine Damond as the example. How many other white people can you name that have suffered from police brutality? ..seeing as there are many more white people in numbers that experience it. My point is that there’s probably other reasons why you think it is a race issue. That’s your cognitive bias working. Now I’m not saying that there aren’t issues of race that happen or that police brutality doesn’t happen. But it’s not racism that is the overwhelming underlying cause here.
Obviously, because I haven't looked up a list, I cannot name one. How many unarmed white people can you name that have suffered from police brutality? The truth is, unless you can split the data up to show whether it was warranted or not, it's a meaningless argument using the data.

And no I don’t really subscribe to the idea that race causes meaningful difference in outcomes. But what does impact outcomes is culture. That is where the difference is and where any solution could stem from.

OK then, so how does culture mean that black americans suffer greater from this than white americans?
 

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Ho-hum.

Usual labels and personal insults when you're argument amounts to nothing but 'feelings'. Try applying reason sometimes Kelli.
.
You think you're being clever, but you're just scared and mean. You of all people are capable of lifting your game, but you revert to type still.
 

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Discussion Starter #77
Well you said you don't blame them.

Beat up someone - KJ won't blame you, kill them - KJ won't blame you.

I've said they should peacefully protest and if no one listens, maybe some self-reflection is in order.
Not condoning and not blaming are completely different things. No wonder you are struggling to understand the situation Locke.
How do you propose they meaningfully protest? If all you can do is saying that they are doing it wrong, but can never say when they are doing it right, your viewpoint is meaningless.

I don't remember you thinking Trump or Pence were in the wrong when they essentially told previous peaceful protests that maybe they should leave America? NFL kneelers 'shouldn't be in country'
If you supported Trump and Pence then, you have no right to complain now.
 

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You think you're being clever, but you're just scared and mean. You of all people are capable of lifting your game, but you revert to type still.
Me, mean? You're the one throwing personal insults. You're the one who is silent about violence when it suits your ends.

I'm not being clever, just highlighting what hypocrites some people here are.
 

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Discussion Starter #79
Because the left loves this stuff. This is what it's all about for them - race, sex, and any pick of class of 'victim' that you want. It will never end.
Yeah, I feel like the left is about caring for those who are being marginalised. But does that mean the right doesn't actually care about the marginalised? I thought they cared more about black people than others. It's what we keep getting told.
 

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Me, mean? You're the one throwing personal insults. You're the one who is silent about violence when it suits your ends.

I'm not being clever, just highlighting what hypocrites some people here are.
Including yourself?
 
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