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I can't see how it can be progressive if one does not support free will, accepts violence and supports the shutdown of thought and logic. Any transition to the extremes will not heal America and I don't support those views. Unfortunately there is a lot of unemployed, frustrated, fearful, confused, disadvantaged and distressed people who might be losing trust in US democratic institutions and principles there at the moment.
 

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Why do I downplay the issue? Mainly because of the subtext of those who focus entirely on this issue and none of the other issues around it.
It's the issue of ignoring systemic racism. It's the issue of making it political (of course the Democrats are to blame for everything).



If you were actually willing to be an ally to those on the wrong side of systemic racism, maybe I'd be willing to discuss things with you. But until then, your are using it as a weapon against racism as a whole and I will not back down from that.



By only hating BLM and not in anyway supporting those fighting racism, you are participating in the division and the politicisation you so dearly hate (apparently).




You have yet to provide appropriate ways to support the dismantling of systemic racism and instead just say "look over there about how evil BLM are."
So you are saying that one HAS TO support BLM NOT to be racist and fight against racism?

I'm pretty sure everyone here is against racism but just because some here call out the roots and beginnings of BLM and what they really are as an organization? We have that right and at the same time can also be against racism in all its forms. You are being binary.
 

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Discussion Starter #923
So you are saying that one HAS TO support BLM NOT to be racist and fight against racism?
Not even close to what I was saying.
A classic example of lacking nuance.




What I'm saying is, if the only theme of your discussion regarding racial matters is, "BLM bad," then I would argue that your contribution to the discussion is minimal at best.
 

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Not even close to what I was saying.
A classic example of lacking nuance.




What I'm saying is, if the only theme of your discussion regarding racial matters is, "BLM bad," then I would argue that your contribution to the discussion is minimal at best.
BLM is bad (IMO). Not all people that attend a BLM rally are bad. Is that clear enough for you? I'm saying, as an organization, they are bad. I'm saying that they also use the majority of lay people that attend their protests, to narrate they are not bad. BLM have a far greater agenda - again, that's my opinion based off of my research into them.

It's simple - if I attend any rally, I look up who the organizer is. If we happen to have crossover on issues then that's good but at the same time, I can go under my own banner, thank you.
 

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Discussion Starter #925
My problem is not that comment. The problem is that this comment gets repeated over and over again and in various ways.

The result of that diminishes the core issues and the issues that need fighting for. As I said, If people actually cared about racism, they wouldn't spend their whole time on this topic focusing on how bad BLM is. If people actually cared about racism, they may mention the issues of BLM, but it wouldn't be their only discussion point on the topic.
 

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My problem is not that comment. The problem is that this comment gets repeated over and over again and in various ways.

The result of that diminishes the core issues and the issues that need fighting for. As I said, If people actually cared about racism, they wouldn't spend their whole time on this topic focusing on how bad BLM is. If people actually cared about racism, they may mention the issues of BLM, but it wouldn't be their only discussion point on the topic.
Why do I downplay the issue? Mainly because of the subtext of those who focus entirely on this issue and none of the other issues around it.
It's the issue of ignoring systemic racism. It's the issue of making it political (of course the Democrats are to blame for everything).



If you were actually willing to be an ally to those on the wrong side of systemic racism, maybe I'd be willing to discuss things with you. But until then, your are using it as a weapon against racism as a whole and I will not back down from that.



By only hating BLM and not in anyway supporting those fighting racism, you are participating in the division and the politicisation you so dearly hate (apparently).




You have yet to provide appropriate ways to support the dismantling of systemic racism and instead just say "look over there about how evil BLM are."
Pffft what a load of rubbish. First of all Systemic Racism doesn’t exist in western democratic countries. This is another bugbear where the left just redefine what racism actually means to suit the narrative. Racism is discrimination because you deem your own race superior. Yet you and others use ‘racism’ as any incident or outcome where race can be identified. It’s not constructive. It’s scientifically baseless and lazy, and stems from thinking like critical race theory that they teach in modern humanities degrees.

So that said, the injustice there is in the Justice system and by the Police, I don’t think it exists in the amount you think it does.

Racism as a whole in democratic western societies is largely a non issue. There’s certainly individual cases where people encounter racism, but to say it is either indicative, systemic or widespread is ridiculous. There is inequalities in specific demographic groups that need addressing through policy, but it’s not due to racism. Focusing on racism as the underlying issue to the cause of all ills is simply stoking racial issues and sewing division. And I will continue to call that out as I see it.
 

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My problem is not that comment. The problem is that this comment gets repeated over and over again and in various ways.

The result of that diminishes the core issues and the issues that need fighting for. As I said, If people actually cared about racism, they wouldn't spend their whole time on this topic focusing on how bad BLM is. If people actually cared about racism, they may mention the issues of BLM, but it wouldn't be their only discussion point on the topic.
Why is that a problem? (see highlight).

They diminish themselves, IMO. The Western world has done so much in the past 40 years to legislate equality and "self examine society based racism". Not saying we have come to full enlightenment but BLM, to me, were hardly the group that started it all. They, IMO, are milking it for their own agenda.
 

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Discussion Starter #928
Pffft what a load of rubbish. First of all Systemic Racism doesn’t exist in western democratic countries.
Exactly my point. Because you don't believe in systemic racism, you focus on BLM.

This is another bugbear where the left just redefine what racism actually means to suit the narrative. Racism is discrimination because you deem your own race superior. Yet you and others use ‘racism’ as any incident or outcome where race can be identified. It’s not constructive. It’s scientifically baseless and lazy, and stems from thinking like critical race theory that they teach in modern humanities degrees.
So if there is no systemic racism, you obviously must be taking a approach that they are inherently a lesser race, right? Because if the black and indigenous populations in the USA, UK, Australia etc. are repeatedly more imprisoned, poorer and generally more disadvantaged, it must mean there is something inherently wrong with their race, right?

So it's either systemic racism, or you believe in the concept that they are a lesser race.

So that said, the injustice there is in the Justice system and by the Police, I don’t think it exists in the amount you think it does.
I've posted the stat about use, arrests and convictions for marijuana (where the best data exists), show that not only are black population is more likely to be arrested for the same crimes, they are also more likely to serve time.

Racism as a whole in democratic western societies is largely a non issue. There’s certainly individual cases where people encounter racism, but to say it is either indicative, systemic or widespread is ridiculous. There is inequalities in specific demographic groups that need addressing through policy, but it’s not due to racism. Focusing on racism as the underlying issue to the cause of all ills is simply stoking racial issues and sewing division. And I will continue to call that out as I see it.
Says the person on the benefited side of the argument. See my comments above.


It's either systemic racism, or you legitimately believe that black and indigenous populations are more violent and less capable because of them being black or indigenous.
 

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Discussion Starter #929
Why is that a problem? (see highlight).

They diminish themselves, IMO. The Western world has done so much in the past 40 years to legislate equality and "self examine society based racism". Not saying we have come to full enlightenment but BLM, to me, were hardly the group that started it all. They, IMO, are milking it for their own agenda.
The problem is that people are focusing on the organisation to avoid having to deal with the problem at hand. It's a classic case of whataboutism.
Even when many agree the organisation isn't the best and try to talk about other elements, the conversation just gets snapped back to how evil BLM is as an organisation.




People who do this have no interest in discussing racism appropriately and also have no interest in understanding why we are where we are.
 

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The problem is that people are focusing on the organisation to avoid having to deal with the problem at hand. It's a classic case of whataboutism.
Even when many agree the organisation isn't the best and try to talk about other elements, the conversation just gets snapped back to how evil BLM is as an organisation.

People who do this have no interest in discussing racism appropriately and also have no interest in understanding why we are where we are.
Ok, that's you opinion but I will respectively disagree.

My view on the first highlight - Again, there is no sin in demarcating the organization (BLM) from the perceived race issues. My whole point is that it should be made known. What's so bad about that? However, if you are arguing that BLM is all virtuous as an organization, which you don't seem to be advocating for too much, that's another discussion.

Why should I endorse an organization that I see as systemically flawed just because the majority think that the race issues they believe are the backbone of BLM are the main reason for BLM? (read that slowly).

You then jump to the assumption and judgment (2nd highlight) that if anyone questions BLM, they have no interest in discussing racism. Am I missing a nuance here again? Praytell, should I quote yourself?

403688


Am I lacking nuance? Your words... yet you just doubled down on the exact same allegation, ie, question the integrity of BLM and therefore I have no interest in fighting racism. You are the one making the endorsement of BLM and one's personal fight towards racism, interdependent. I see them as mutually exclusive.
 

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So there is the core of the agenda of the likes of Hexter and Danukoz it is the denial of systemic racism and vilify any attempt to acknowledge and end it.
 

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So there is the core of the agenda of the likes of Hexter and Danukoz it is the denial of systemic racism and vilify any attempt to acknowledge and end it.
No, my core is BLM is bad and that racism does exist but BLM are not the answer. Is racism systemic in Western society? I don't think I have commented on that perse. "Systemic" racism needs to be defined and it's going to be a fluid definition. for me, I guess it means that it is baked into the system with legislated processes. I don't condone the "white fragility" Robin DiAngelo school of thought here - I personally think her core ideas are them-self, quite racist. I also don't think in most Western societies there is legislated systematic racism. It's not like we live in Malaysia where there is all sorts of legislation that gives so many different levels of systemically enacted benefits and rights based around your religion and ethnic group:

 

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Discussion Starter #933
Ok, that's you opinion but I will respectively disagree.
My view on the first highlight - Again, there is no sin in demarcating the organization (BLM) from the perceived race issues.
No-one on here has said there is.

My whole point is that it should be made known. What's so bad about that?
Nothings bad about that. But why does it need to be brought up every single time there is a sniff of commentary regarding racism. We know!

However, if you are arguing that BLM is all virtuous as an organization, which you don't seem to be advocating for too much, that's another discussion.
You are correct in your assumption. And in fact, I don't think there would be very many at all who would even try to argue they are!



Why should I endorse an organization that I see as systematically flawed just because the majority think that the race issues they believe are the backbone of BLM are the main reason for BLM? (read that slowly).
No one is saying you should endorse them.


You then jump to the assumption and judgment (2nd highlight) that if anyone questions BLM, they have no interest in discussing racism. Am I missing a nuance here again? Praytell, should I quote yourself?
Not what I said at all. I said that if you only, and continually talk about how bad the BLM organisation is, and have nothing else to add to the discussion of racism, then you have a problem. I'm not saying, and have never said, that if you criticise BLM you don't want to discuss racism.


View attachment 403688

Am I lacking nuance? Your words... yet you just doubled down on the exact same allegation, ie, question the integrity of BLM and therefore I have no interest in fighting racism. You are the one making the endorsement of BLM and one's personal fight towards racism, interdependent. I see them as mutually exclusive.

Again,. not what I said at all. I have never said that and please stop assuming I have said that. I've explained why your assumption is wrong above.
 

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Discussion Starter #935
Did I say non-white?

Also, how many poor Asians are moving to Australia?
 

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Exactly my point. Because you don't believe in systemic racism, you focus on BLM.



So if there is no systemic racism, you obviously must be taking a approach that they are inherently a lesser race, right? Because if the black and indigenous populations in the USA, UK, Australia etc. are repeatedly more imprisoned, poorer and generally more disadvantaged, it must mean there is something inherently wrong with their race, right?

So it's either systemic racism, or you believe in the concept that they are a lesser race.



I've posted the stat about use, arrests and convictions for marijuana (where the best data exists), show that not only are black population is more likely to be arrested for the same crimes, they are also more likely to serve time.



Says the person on the benefited side of the argument. See my comments above.


It's either systemic racism, or you legitimately believe that black and indigenous populations are more violent and less capable because of them being black or indigenous.
There in lies your problem. You see the issue through a race lens so when you’re looking at an issue you’re going to see race as a cause. It’s backwards thinking as you come up with the cause first, then works backwards from there to find ways to justify it.

Systemic racism is a theory. Yet another one borne from humanities degrees where a vague unprovable idea is created, which conveniently does not require burden of proof, just weight of public opinion. And then parroted and spread by those who are gullible and can’t critically think.
 

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No Danukoz not a theory borne from humanities degrees. So sure of yourself and so dismissive, why not just for once try and see things from the view of those who say they suffer from racism and stereotyping.


 

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Because facts are more important than feelings Andy. Objective truth over personal truth.

The video you posted simply showed the cops calmly doing their job. There was nothing to see, nothing to get morally outraged over. Maybe they could have removed the kids from the situation, but obviously thought the situation could be better controlled that way. The bystander called it “police brutality”, yet it wasn’t physically forceful, no one was hurt, and was simply a mixup as their car was stolen previously, and obviously stilled marked as stolen. This is the problem. You guys really bought the BLM/Antifa/Socialist line that all cops are bastards. It’s disturbing how quickly you guys get the wool pulled over your eyes.
 

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Of course you would diminish the anguish and trauma those children went through. Your lack of empathy is laid bare if you think that is acceptable.
 

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Discussion Starter #940
There in lies your problem. You see the issue through a race lens so when you’re looking at an issue you’re going to see race as a cause. It’s backwards thinking as you come up with the cause first, then works backwards from there to find ways to justify it.

Systemic racism is a theory. Yet another one borne from humanities degrees where a vague unprovable idea is created, which conveniently does not require burden of proof, just weight of public opinion. And then parroted and spread by those who are gullible and can’t critically think.

So if it's just a correlation (a very very neat and widespread one), then what is the causation?


I notice you've provided no discussion as to why it occurs, just that it's a wrong theory.
 
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