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High speed rail Belfast/Dublin/Cork - feasibility study announced

21569 Views 158 Replies 28 Participants Last post by  Oriel
High speed rail Belfast/Dublin/Cork - feasibility study



In the agreement involving the parties at Stormont today..."progressed as a priority"

Seems to have got some traction just today by commentators.

What say you?
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Well, I hate to be cynical/realistic...but I reckon the Irish Govt will only spend on projects with clear electoral advantage.

So, the A5 might get some support (North Donegal) but as for the railway....can't see the Dublin hoi polloi interested and will the Cork folk want a HS rail link to Dublin when they can't even get a road to Limerick?

Especially given they already have a speedy motorway link to Dub?

Sponge might gift us with an ex-cathedra statement on the issue :)
What say you?
It would cost around the entire Apple windfall but it is a jolly good use for all the Apple windfall is it not Bill?????
Would it cost that much?:dunno:

It would be a lot but don't think it would cost that much.

If, for example, it interconnected with Metro underground at Dublin Airport (instead of going to in to the center of the city) serious savings could be made in land costs...
Well.

1. You have to build 'a' DART Underground first ....that will cost 1/4 of the Apple windfall all on its own.
2. KRP cost over €20m a km 10 years back. There does be a tad over 400km between Belfast and Cork.
3, It is not worth doing without average running speeds of 200kph so yeah, around €12bn I reckon, the entire Apple Windfall gone....just like that.
Would it cost that much?:dunno:
This is just something someone from Limerick would say :(

Onward I say!

I see this as a great project to get behind.
Every country that tried HSR found it is expensive, it is hard to find good alignments so a lot of the benefit is derived from new really straight sections, you could build a line straight from Newry to Belfast (non stop of course) and depending on how straight you could do Belfast - Newry in 15 minutes.

But you have to beat both flying and buses so you gotta be able to do Belfast to Cork...400km....in 1 hour and 59m minutes at least once a day and with more stops deliver a more 'average' end to end experience of around 2:15 to 2:20. This will require some long, new, 250kph sections I reckon.

It is 4 hours in a car and 5 hours on a bus right now. HSR simply has to beat these modes given the price they charge for tickets.

Fiscal space is abolished now our debt dropped below 60% of GDP at end 2019 and we can issue 20 year green bonds at around 1.5% interest if we choose (we already issued green bonds and the takeup was OK) . It is doable but not for a penny under €10bn and more likely €15bn to my mind. EG Dart Underground would have to extend from the M50 N to the M50 SW at a minimum IMO.

I am not saying whether I am in favour or not, just scoping some parameters here.
This is a project we have to do at some stage imo.

May as well scope it now.

P.S not comparing but China did it super cheap.
China would not build any HSR INSIDE the M50 but would skirt Dublin outside the M50. There would be a Dublin North Station and a Dublin West station and each would have a metro to take you to the middle of Dubln.....most likely.

The Chinese don't fcuk around with stupid crap like permaconsultations and giving Eamon Ryan airtime. :(
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Ah Well, the government just blew the cash for the study since the thread was started.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/break...rt-that-had-been-valued-at-600000-974756.html

The airport is not in the Aran Islands, contrary to what the dopey Cork journalist says, and its current owner, well known Fianna Fáil Senator Pádraig O Céidigh had already said he would sell it to the people of Aran for €1. :)
I agree it’s a stretch.

I get the impression it’s more of a ‘ideological’ project than economic. Linking the island’s three largest cities by high-speed rail is an attractive project and good for wider all-island consensus.

It’s a massive project though and people shouldn’t be blind to the complications and costs involved.
Sponge is being silly.

We are not wanting for money right now and need to progress major projects outside of the usual.

This is a project everyone could get behind.

And it's not Dublin centric.

It just gives everyone the chance to get here quicker is all.

Only joking ;)
Would be great to see but not a hope this would ever get serious traction, just look at all the messing across the water with their HSR line, and thats linking three major cities in London, Birmingham and Manchester.

For one thing, building the necessary straight line routes through the countryside would be impossible without huge amounts of demolition of one-off housing - HSR isn't like a motorway that can snake around houses. That alone would set us back years in nimbyism, court cases, consultations, redesigns, political arguing etc

And thats without taking cost, parish pump politics or the environmental brigade into things
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I am being practical, there is one other issue so lets explain it using a theoretical Dublin Galway HSR....one that will not be built either.

Lets say Taoiseach O Cuiv announces a Dublin-Galway HSR. We all know that such a line would be straight and in a straight line there are only 2 major towns, Mullingar and Athlone.

There is no point serving Ballinasloe or Athenry or Kinnegad with HSR, no populations. This means that the whole of East Galway and Roscommon will be up in arms looking for 'their' station on the HSR and that anyone will any sense will tell them to fcuk off with themselves and their HSR station. The whole of East Galway and Roscommon will then object with NIMBY shite erupting everywhere.

Eamon Ryan will inevitably stir the pot by advocating bicycle lanes along both sides of this HSR and being "in favour" of HSR stations in Moate, Enfield, Ballinasloe, Taughmaconnell and Athenry...with cycle racks of course. Eamon loves to indulge in this victimless whataboutery as we all know. :(

As well as that you will have to have 'headline' 59 minute non stop services as well as 1:15 stopping services to beat the car (now 2 hours) or the bus @ 2:30 centre to centre nowadays. A Dublin-Galway HSR has to make it in 59 minutes to justify the investment (it is ~200km)

In the context of Dublin-Cork HSR I do not see any merit in stopping anywhere in Tipperary at all but we will have to concede at least 1 station there, probably Thurles. This will have Team Lowry and the Mattie McGrath factions against as they represent different parts of Tipperary which will be traversed by the service. If you go Thurles Mallow straight you will need a short tunnel under the west side of the Galtees...possibly.

The success of any HSR project will largely be determined by to whom, and how, you say fcuk off No!. And if you make too many concessions to populist local interests like a Team Lowry then it cannot be, by definition, a HSR. If there are more than 2 HSR stations between Mallow and Naas you have failed entirely and the money is wasted.
Sponge is being silly
Interesting. I note that posters here have gone straight for the assumption that only a brand new tgv or ave route is what's being considered. Somewhere like Ireland probably wouldn't benefit from something like that.

Rather what will be planned (and never built) is retrofitted high speed with a max 220kmh speed. A new alignment from Newry to Lisburn, a new alignment from Drogheda to Heuston and some other rebuilt sections plus electrification would allow Belfast to Cork services regularly get above 200kmh. With good connections at Portarlington Belfast and Limerick Junction most of Ireland's population would be fairly accessible to the high speed spine route.
I think that is unfar, posters (apart from Bill) gave their outline opinions.Anyway a brand new route would be a 300kph design if you did go that far.

Interesting. I note that posters here have gone straight for the assumption that only a brand new tgv or ave route is what's being considered.
Rather what will be planned (and never built) is retrofitted high speed with a max 220kmh speed. A new alignment from Newry to Lisburn,
OK that is doable.

a new alignment from Drogheda to Heuston
Interesting, you would have the 'DU' portion running further west than originally then. Say Drogheda<>Swords<>Heuston

and some other rebuilt sections
YOU reckon no new alignments along Cork Hueston so.

plus electrification
Of course.

would allow Belfast to Cork services regularly get above 200kmh. With good connections at Portarlington Belfast and Limerick Junction most of Ireland's population would be fairly accessible to the high speed spine route.
Such a spine would support de facto Electrification to Kilkenny and Limerick too as long as the trains had battery packs. AND of course to Navan on the existing line. :)

Where did you hear what is 'planned ' anyway, I thought it was all green field thinking at this point???
Ah come on lads, it says "consideration" to "feasibility" in a political document. This will go under the "Give consideration to" chapter in the Ireland 2100 plan when it goes to print, nothing will actually happen for a long long time. There are so many comparatively "low hanging fruit" type projects (i.e. cost hundreds of millions instead of tens of billions) which we can't get done, this is decades away.
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I’m sure it could be done if there is the will. It should be extended to Derry though.
Will isn't enough, it needs a sound Business Case and it wont have that.
I’m sure it could be done if there is the will. It should be extended to Derry though.
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