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To be honest I don't know why the southern leg isn't four track to begin with, daft buggers.
Presumably because trying to get a two track alignment through the Chilterns has already been a pain in the backside and they were trying to make it as acceptable as possible. I think a secondary core alignment is the prefered method for boosting capacity with Greengauge suggesting via Cambridge. Although an M1 type line seems the better and much more direct choice. I'd like to think such a line could be a four track line for continental gauge freight traffic to travel further north.
 

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HS2 signed off

Funding slug for HS3 likely to be announced at the Budget.

Roll on HS4 to Toton via Cambridge (with a Norfolk branch)!

Can’t see that being even publicly floated until London to Birmingham is running and being well used.

Somewhere along the way CR2 (or variant thereof) still needs the green light though suspect that’ll need CR1 running and quite probably HS3 in hybrid Bill process first. Whatever happened anyway to the hype that CR2 was a necessary enabling project for the numbers at Euston caused by HS2 phase 2?
 

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Tea. Earl grey. Hot.
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HS2 signed off

Funding slug for HS3 likely to be announced at the Budget.

Roll on HS4 to Toton via Cambridge (with a Norfolk branch)!

Can’t see that being even publicly floated until London to Birmingham is running and being well used.

Somewhere along the way CR2 (or variant thereof) still needs the green light though suspect that’ll need CR1 running and quite probably HS3 in hybrid Bill process first. Whatever happened anyway to the hype that CR2 was a necessary enabling project for the numbers at Euston caused by HS2 phase 2?
Will Euston have capacity for an expanded HS4 and HS5? I suspect not.
 

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To be honest I don't know why the southern leg isn't four track to begin with, daft buggers.
I'm sure I read somewhere that this was investigated, but the extra costs threw the project's cost-benefit analysis off kilter. This is why we're now building what will be the most intensively used high speed line on earth (18 paths per hour in each direction).
 

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It all looks very messy. And worryingly reliant on the classic network in my opinion, with all the joining that's going to need to go on for southbound services - but then that was more or less the case with more trains as well.

I wonder how long it will take us to regret not four-tracking the southern stretch.
Joining and dividing trains always adds complication and risk - but it can be managed. It might look messy, but what I propose it that seven HS2 departures from London each hour split. The current HS2 service pattern shows six HS2 departures each hour from London splitting (at Crewe, Carstairs and Toton). So hardly any difference.

Absolutely no point wasting money on building four tracks south of Birmingham - what determines ultimate line capacity is the number of platforms at Euston to terminate the trains and the ability of the station throat layout to handle conflicting movements.
 

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I'm sure I read somewhere that this was investigated, but the extra costs threw the project's cost-benefit analysis off kilter. This is why we're now building what will be the most intensively used high speed line on earth (18 paths per hour in each direction).
Since the Heathrow branch was ditched, HS2 Ltd has only ever proposed 17 TPH, not 18. Have a read of Andrew McNaughton's comments about why the design of HS2 will allow so many trains to run per hour. No high speed line on earth has been built to date with such high frequency in mind, so meaningful comparisons are impossible.
 

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Are we getting double decker trains?

Just experienced these in France they were ace
Captive routes will be able to accomodate them, whether that means they will be ordered remains to be seen. I'd hope we will, I can't see the point in getting single deckers when double deckers are available. I think SNCF only order double decker TGVs now.
 

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Not to begin with. The phase 1 fleet will be entirely Classic Compatible as there will be so few entirely captive services. These trains will have the same dimensions as normal UK trains. Captive trains will only be built for phase 2 and these can be as big as continental trains, but there are no plans for double deckers as yet.
 

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Not to begin with. The phase 1 fleet will be entirely Classic Compatible as there will be so few entirely captive services. These trains will have the same dimensions as normal UK trains. Captive trains will only be built for phase 2 and these can be as big as continental trains, but there are no plans for double deckers as yet.
There is now a whole decade before any firm decisions on the second tranche of trains need to be made, and the decision from 2030 onwards about ordering double deck stock (or not) will no doubt depend on:

1) Will the extra capacity from double deckers actually be needed before 2060?
2) Exactly what kind of double deck 360 km/h rolling stock options will be offered by the main manufacturers in 2030?

By point 2 above I mean affordability and capacity for the required HS2 performance. Currently Alstom seem to be offering something like two short power cars with 7 or 8 intermediate double deck passenger cars, potentially seating about 640-650 per unit. This format is because it is difficult to incorporate distributed traction under double deck passenger cars due to a lack of space.

However traction packages tend become more compact as time goes on. Maybe by 2030 a single power car (maybe a few metres longer) can house all the necessary traction equipment. In which case the extra passenger carriage may mean 750 seats - or to put it another way, up to 1,500 seats for every departure from Manchester and Birmingham (also some from Leeds).
 

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Somewhere along the way CR2 (or variant thereof) still needs the green light though suspect that’ll need CR1 running and quite probably HS3 in hybrid Bill process first. Whatever happened anyway to the hype that CR2 was a necessary enabling project for the numbers at Euston caused by HS2 phase 2?
Sir David Higgins said something along the lines of 'lets just say TFL are very good at lobbying for budget' when he was asked about the need for CR2 some years ago.
 

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Isn’t there an issue with accessibility with double decker trains or has that been resolved?
First of all you'd need to put the doors at an intermediate level to match the high british platforms, and not at the lower level (where you can go down in the train from the low french platforms).
The door area would thus look more like this (in terms of height, not number of doors of course) :

than this :


For accessibility, it implies either an extended zone at platform level in one car of the train, or an elevator inside the train next to the door (there is one in the TGV Duplex and the future TGV2020, but for the much smaller distance between the 55 cm platform and the lower deck ; An example here : https://youtu.be/0KdzF3aGHhc ).
 

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The implication in the UK context I think is that each unit needs one single deck car configured First Class - shop - standard class. This way the wheelchair space(s) aren't an isolated island, but can travel in the same compartment and at the same level with companions, and have access to the full range of onboard services.

At this rate I doubt double decker trains would even provide a 15% uplift in seating capacity compared with a standard single deck design.
 

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Joining and dividing trains always adds complication and risk - but it can be managed. It might look messy, but what I propose it that seven HS2 departures from London each hour split. The current HS2 service pattern shows six HS2 departures each hour from London splitting (at Crewe, Carstairs and Toton). So hardly any difference.
Like I say, it was the case before as well. Departures from London shouldn't be a problem - I'm more concerned about ensuring that every train from Liverpool and Glasgow, say, arrives on time at Crewe to be joined. If there's an issue at Carlisle then what happens to the Liverpool half?

That's a genuine question, by the way - I think the only splitting/joining service I've used in the UK is the one from Birmingham International to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli, which is obviously a different kettle of fish entirely.

Absolutely no point wasting money on building four tracks south of Birmingham - what determines ultimate line capacity is the number of platforms at Euston to terminate the trains and the ability of the station throat layout to handle conflicting movements.
Good point. I was assuming that the design speed of the line would be downgraded in the 14ph scenario, but thinking about it I guess that's already set, and it's just Euston where it can be nobbled.
 

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Milky Milky
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I don't want double decker trains as I think they are far from ideal. But do you know definitely that there won't be double decker trains are are you saying no because you are of the brigade that wants HS2 binned off?
Although I do want HS2 axed, i know that all graphics, prototypes, diagrams and proposed stations are designed for traditional single deck trains. If HS2 trains are supposed to also go on existing railways, no bridges are low enough for double decker units.
 
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