[I] Italy | road infrastructure • strade e autostrade

Yet another article about the desires of Veneto region to see the A27 extended into Austria: Autostrada A27 fino in Austria: «Si può fare anche con i soldi del Pnrr»

View attachment 4065111

Coccodrillo said:

Yet another article about the desires of Veneto region to see the A27 extended into Austria: Autostrada A27 fino in Austria: «Si può fare anche con i soldi del Pnrr»

View attachment 4065111

Click to expand...

The article title means "it can be done even with national recovery plan money". However, they refer only to the project, not the actual work, cause as I said before, all the money must be spent by 2026.

g.spinoza said:

all the money must be spent by 2026.

Click to expand...

I'm wondering (in general, not specifically Italy or this case), if this fund would lead to wasteful or less than optimal spending. Infrastructure projects provide long-term economic benefits, but it also takes a lot of time from start to finish, in many cases it takes over a decade of planning and construction. This makes it pretty much impossible to spend this recovery fund to provide long-term infrastructure benefits, instead being used for perhaps less beneficial short-term purposes.

Given the fast post-pandemic recovery, it makes you wonder if the EU recovery fund was even really needed at all, or may even contribute to overheating or inflation.

Coccodrillo said:

Yet another article about the desires of Veneto region to see the A27 extended into Austria: Autostrada A27 fino in Austria: «Si può fare anche con i soldi del Pnrr»

Click to expand...

It will never ever be extended "into" Austria, and I think it won't go beyond Auronzo di Cadore if anything.

ChrisZwolle said:

I'm wondering (in general, not specifically Italy or this case), if this fund would lead to wasteful or less than optimal spending. Infrastructure projects provide long-term economic benefits, but it also takes a lot of time from start to finish, in many cases it takes over a decade of planning and construction. This makes it pretty much impossible to spend this recovery fund to provide long-term infrastructure benefits, instead being used for perhaps less beneficial short-term purposes.

Given the fast post-pandemic recovery, it makes you wonder if the EU recovery fund was even really needed at all, or may even contribute to overheating or inflation.

Click to expand...

Don't wonder. This is Italy. Of course the money will be wasted.

When I heard first about the national recovery plan, I thought it would be given to the people who lost their income during the pandemic, not to finance infrastructural projects that have nothing to do with COVID and that, in the best scenario, will be built only to receive no maintenance in the future because of lack of resources.

g.spinoza said:

When I heard first about the national recovery plan, I thought it would be given to the people who lost their income during the pandemic

Click to expand...

That would not be allowed by the rules of the plan, I mean the rules defined by the EU.

g.spinoza said:

When I heard first about the national recovery plan

Click to expand...

Is there an Italian national plan in addition to the EU plan?

g.spinoza said:

finance infrastructural projects that have nothing to do with COVID and that, in the best scenario, will be built only to receive no maintenance in the future because of lack of resources.

Click to expand...

Yep, but the projects must be ready to start construction NOW so that they might be completed by 2026.

Attus said:

That would not be allowed by the rules of the plan, I mean the rules defined by the EU.

Click to expand...

I see. That doesn't make it, at least in my eyes, more right.

MichiH said:

Is there an Italian national plan in addition to the EU plan?

Click to expand...

According to the limited knowledge I have about this, the word "national" was put there to underline the fact that EU gives the money, under strict rules as @Attus says, but the plan on how to spend it was drafted by the Italian government.
Besides, according to the website, Italy is complementing the 191 G€ of EU money with 30.6 G€ more of own money.

g.spinoza said:

When I heard first about the national recovery plan, I thought it would be given to the people who lost their income during the pandemic

Click to expand...

You really thought that EU would have made debt in order to give it to the citizens for free?

ChrisZwolle said:

I'm wondering (in general, not specifically Italy or this case), if this fund would lead to wasteful or less than optimal spending.

Click to expand...

The problem is: we got a huge amount of money to spend (and to repay) which Italy isn’t able to spend. Furthermore, our government reserved it in larger proportion for projects in the south, but those administrations don’t have projects in their drawers (only projects at an advanced stade, definitive projects, were admitted to run for the money), and many of those which were presented, were rejected because badly executed.
So the regions which needed them most, did not get the money, and those regions which were able to spend it, got it stingly.

No doubt, that many of the projects, even if in advanced stade, won’t be finshed until the dead line. I hope that EU will be unforgiving and pretend it back promptly, also the money spent.
Why? Not because of Your concern, no new projects have been financed, just those already in the pipeline, but because we simply don’t have the necessary workforce to realise them in time. Despite plenty of jobless people.

pccvspw999 said:

You really thought that EU would have made debt in order to give it to the citizens for free?

Click to expand...

The vast majority of recovery plan money are loans.

New national road numbers issued in 2022

In 2022 4 new national roads have been issued in Piedmont region. They are not new roads built from scratch, but existing roads handed over to ANAS and classified as national roads (SS-prefix):

• SS 757 "della Val Boglione" (Gianola - Terzo, 10.345 km)
• SS 758 "Masserano-Mongrando" (San Giacomo del Bosco - Ceresane-Curanuova, 24,465 km)
• SS 759 "di Prato Sesia" (Grignasco - Romagnano Sesia, 4,250 km)
• SS 760 "Tangenziale est di Saluzzo" (eastern bypass of Saluzzo, 3,969 km)

ANAS is keeping classifying new national roads with SS 7xx numbers (SS 700 was reached in 2010 and the highest number is SS 760 as of today).
However, there are many gaps in SS lists, as many of them have been downgraded to regional or provincial roads, or were located in territories lost to Yugoslavia after WWII. These numbers have never been reused for other roads.
Other national roads have been at first downgraded to provincial or regional roads, but reclassificated as national roads again after some years. In these cases old SS numbers have been reassigned.

g.spinoza said:

The vast majority of recovery plan money are loans.

Click to expand...

And the point is?

pccvspw999 said:

And the point is?

Click to expand...

The point was criticizing you when you said "for free".

g.spinoza said:

The point was criticizing you when you said "for free".

Click to expand...

Well, because arguing to give to “the people” the money of the “recovery plan” makes sense only if it is “for free”. Look, it is not a problem of liquidity, so everyone can take a loan at common interest rates at any bank, no need for the money of the “recovery plan”.
So why arguing it in the first place?

pccvspw999 said:

Well, because arguing to give to “the people” the money of the “recovery plan” makes sense only if it is “for free”. Look, it is not a problem of liquidity, so everyone can take a loan at common interest rates at any bank, no need for the money of the “recovery plan”.
So why arguing it in the first place?

Click to expand...

One thing is money given by the state to the people, which can as well be "for free": it will be repaid by taxes, with time.
Another thing is millions of people going to the banks asking for loans: how many do you think the banks are going to grant?

I don't want to argue, but you started.

Next 14 November the whole A52 "North Tangenziale of Milan" will be open for traffic.
There have been troubles with the main piece of work, an overpass that directly connects the two previous stretches of A52, which didn't pass the structural tests and had to be strenghtened.

About Trentino - Alto Adige motorways - I would rather like to see A31 between Thiene and Trento built than A27 coming to A border.

x-type said:

About Trentino - Alto Adige motorways - I would rather like to see A31 between Thiene and Trento built than A27 coming to A border.

Click to expand...

I think in terms on connection the A27 would be more useful. A31 is just a Verona bypass.