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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I have to say this man might be talking language most might agree with.


He won't get a nomination of course (but then the same was said of Trump) but what he is saying is pertinent.

All he seems to be saying is don't repeat the mistakes with immigration of France and UK.

He'd get my vote unashamedly.
 

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We need to confront the fact that welfare rates in this country are too high relative to a low paying job, and how this interacts with immigration.

The figures for the number of African nationals in Ireland in employment is quite shocking, i believe it's only about 40%. Now this is only happening due to the comfortable level of welfare and state housing, which acts as a disincentive to work for those migrants with low or no skills. The media will not talk about this but it's a crucial issue that stirs a lot of resentment among the general population.
 

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All he seems to be saying is don't repeat the mistakes with immigration of France and UK.
The difference being that France and the UK have a colonial past and have experienced immigration for generations and some previous colonial states still have slightly preferential treatment. Immigration for Ireland is a relatively recent issue as it has no real history of people wanting to live in Ireland.

Nothing wrong with immigration if it's managed properly. Ireland is not part of Schengen so movement of people is monitored and as such there's nothing stopping them developing an immigration policy that emphasises skill needs matched to economic need from those beyond the EU.
 

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The mistakes of immigration in UK and France? I suppose you mean non-white immigration by that?

Do you mean mistakes of using immigrants as a convenient scapegoat when things go wrong.
Of screwing the working class and them telling them it was all the immigrants fault.
Or perhaps you mean enforcing policies which make their existence insecure.



He'd get my vote unashamedly.
That does not surprise me in the least.

We need to confront the fact that welfare rates in this country are too high relative to a low paying job, and how this interacts with immigration.
Do you want to try UK and US policies of marginalising ethnic minorities, and recreate their wonderfully fair and equal societies. Or perhaps we could look at some of our other neighbours who would arguably have better welfare rates, higher immigration and greater workforce participation.

The figures for the number of African nationals in Ireland in employment is quite shocking, i believe it's only about 40%. Now this is only happening due to the comfortable level of welfare and state housing, which acts as a disincentive to work for those migrants with low or no skills. The media will not talk about this but it's a crucial issue that stirs a lot of resentment among the general population.
There might be other reasons for this.

Key findings from the Ethnicity and Nationality in the Irish Labour Market study include:

• Black Africans recorded the highest unemployment rate being four times more likely to be unemployed than white Irish individuals;

• White people from the old EU member states recorded the lowest unemployment rate at 9pc, followed by Asians at 12pc;

• Black Africans and ethnic minority EU individuals were less likely to have jobs than Asians and white people from the EU;

• Black Africans, Asians, Ethnic minority EU and white people from the UK and 12 EU new member states were less likely than white Irish nationals to work in professional and managerial occupations;

• Migrants who arrived in Ireland during the recession were more likely to suffer discrimination job hunting than those who arrived during the boom;

• All national ethnic groups, apart from white UK and white EU-13 individuals, reported substantially higher rates of discrimination in the workplace than white Irish;

• People in the 55-59 age group were more likely to report discrimination when looking for work in 2010 compared with 2004. The ESRI branded this "significant".

They were also more than twice as likely to suffer discrimination while looking for work compared with those aged between 20 and 24.

The ESRI suggested that part of the severe disadvantages suffered by black Africans could be due to the fact that many are refugees.

"People who enter the country as asylum seekers spend a considerable period of time excluded from the labour market and in many respects excluded from participation in Irish society," the report said.



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Not entirely sure a country that happily exported hundreds of thousands of Irish nationals during the recession can moan when people opt for Ireland as the economy improves or are simply seeking a better life. Can’t have your cake and eat it. Unless such realities are acknowledged then a public debate is meaningless and hypocritical.

Immigration and emigration has benefited Ireland immensely. Ireland couldn’t function as an economy without migrants.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Irish people generally went to far bigger countries and so the comparison is a false one to start with in terms of impact. The impact is far higher in Ireland with modest immigration.

There is working class/middle class split in terms of thinking on immigration. The middle class don't see the changes.

Why is this? It's simple. Middle class voters are not yet at the coal face of seeing the type of demographic changes that are happening in working class areas of Dublin like Blanchardstown, Tryellstown, Balbriggan etc...

This won't last and as those changes seep in to middle class areas then the hypocrisy and moralising ends quick fast and public opinion really turns. This is when right wing parties start to emerge (the BNP's and FN's of this world).

We don't need to get to that point in my opinion with sensible policy direction. But that requires debate and then actual decisions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
It’s only false in your head. It’s the same basic principle and if you can’t see that then you’re an idiot at best and something else at worst.
I'm stating fact. You don't have an argument against it because there is none and resort to innuendo.

It's intellectually dishonest to say a small country like Ireland has the capacity of larger countries to integrate large number of immigrants. There is no practical or moral argument for it.

Simple.

Either engage in sensible discussion or don't engage at all.
 

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Ireland is the world’s 142nd most densely populated country.....it’s not exactly bursting at the seams.

The country has issues with housing, education and health provision and those are purely of the Government’s and local councils making. Those issues exist in these great vast countries the Irish have conveniently been exported to over the years as well. Just because Australia is large does not mean there’s no problems in regard to housing and health.

Immigrants are just a convenient and lazy scapegoat for endemic structural and policy failures.
 

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Not entirely sure a country that happily exported hundreds of thousands of Irish nationals during the recession can moan when people opt for Ireland as the economy improves or are simply seeking a better life. Can’t have your cake and eat it. Unless such realities are acknowledged then a public debate is meaningless and hypocritical.
Close to half of the "emigrants" you speak of during the recession were in fact returning Eastern European nationals who were working in construction. You might want to look a little deeper into the stats. Also you seem to have this weird thing about associating "emigration" uniquely with the ROI. Every year, hundreds of thousands of British leave the UK looking for economic opportunities abroad. Look at the stats. Even in Spain, the majority of British there are working, not pensioners as many believe.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/16/brits-living-in-rest-of-eu-are-mainly-of-working-age-not-pensioners

You also ignore the welfare state. Pretty much 100% of the Irish construction workers who emigrated during the recession went into employment, and close to 0% were on welfare in their new country. Similarly in the past when the Irish emigrated to the US, the welfare state didn't exist. We must deal with the issue of an overly generous welfare state in the ROI creating a dis-incentive for unskilled migrants to work.
 

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Close to half of the "emigrants" you speak of during the recession were in fact returning Eastern European nationals who were working in construction. You might want to look a little deeper into the stats. Also you seem to have this weird thing about associating "emigration" uniquely with the ROI. Every year, hundreds of thousands of British leave the UK looking for economic opportunities abroad. Look at the stats. Even in Spain, the majority of British there are working, not pensioners as many believe.

We must deal with the issue of an overly generous welfare state in the ROI creating a dis-incentive for unskilled migrants to work.
I'm not associating emigration solely with RoI, this is a debate about RoI in the Irish forum though so go figure....

I am however exposing the rampant hypocrisy in regard to the debate, the same hypocrisy exists in the UK as well in regard to immigration so it's no unique to RoI in the slightest. The postings above though have been in relation to Ireland so why would I complicate matters by commenting on other countries?
 

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No one is suggesting stopping immigration but by bringing it up in the campaign we might finally have an actual public debate...instead of the ducking and diving ostrich approach.
Um, the President has NO say in formulating Govt policy on immigration. This Sharkey chap might like to pretend he'll be able to influence state policy but if (in a snowball's chance in hell) he became Prez he'd be completely hamstrung by the constitutional limitations of the office.

Irish people generally went to far bigger countries and so the comparison is a false one to start with in terms of impact. The impact is far higher in Ireland with modest immigration.

There is working class/middle class split in terms of thinking on immigration. The middle class don't see the changes.

Why is this? It's simple. Middle class voters are not yet at the coal face of seeing the type of demographic changes that are happening in working class areas of Dublin like Blanchardstown, Tryellstown, Balbriggan etc...
Hmm, there are immigrants all over Ireland, in every part of the country. Why are you focusing exclusively on those parts that have a large African population? I know the answer of course but it's curious to hear those banging on about immigration but the kind of immigration that brings in non-whites.

This won't last and as those changes seep in to middle class areas then the hypocrisy and moralising ends quick fast and public opinion really turns. This is when right wing parties start to emerge (the BNP's and FN's of this world).

We don't need to get to that point in my opinion with sensible policy direction. But that requires debate and then actual decisions.
If you're worried about the emergence of BNP/FN types in Ireland then don't be giving publicity to dog-whistlers like Sharkey then!

Ireland is the world’s 142nd most densely populated country.....it’s not exactly bursting at the seams.
Bingo!

The Netherlands has a land area of just over half of Ireland and yet supports a population of 17 million people. The island nation of Taiwan has 20 million people for a country half the size of Ireland.

Anyone saying we're "full-up" needs to STFU!
 
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