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On Kyoto, I am...

  • ...in favour of the plan.

    Votes: 30 63.8%
  • ...against the plan.

    Votes: 12 25.5%
  • ...neither nor against the plan.

    Votes: 5 10.6%
21 - 33 of 33 Posts

· Mr. Haney(Cruz) for Pres.
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I support the idea of Kyoto to a point, but I'm totally against spending one penny for CO2 "credits" from other countries - it's just throwing money away.
 

· The Tropics of Canada
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5,136 Posts
A main component of the plan is to replace coal-fired generating plants with cleaner electricity sources.

It also includes cuts in greenhouse-gas emissions by using new technologies that capture carbon dioxide that would otherwise escape during petroleum production.

These are really the only good parts of the plan, and we can do this with out hurting buisness and loosing jobs I think, Hydro electricity works great , If you have a large River and room , you can have Hydro. Or let us in BC supply t to ya for the same money Quebec gets.
 

· Technocrat
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1,184 Posts
^ There's clean (or at least they claim it to be clean) coal-burning technology out there that is starting to come into use. It's cheaper just to go with that for now. I'm sure at least a few other forumers have heard of this stuff, it was on the National a little while ago, and they said some coal mines in NB might open back up because of it.

Alberta Environmental Accomplishments

Clean coal

Alberta companies and institutions are leading initiatives to minimize the environmental impact of burning coal:
-combining coal with paper waste to test if the mix burns cleaner
examining how the makeup of different coals and cokes affects how they burn
-The University of Alberta, with the support of industry, has established an industrial research chair for advanced coal cleaning and combustion
-The Canadian Clean Power Coalition is moving forward with plans to demonstrate clean coal power generation at a new plant by 2012. The Coalition has completed the first phase of a feasibility study into technologies to eliminate greenhouse gases from coal-fired power plants
I am against Kyoto, but for environmental protection. It's better to just let the industry change itself. Companies are already doing this.
http://www.climatechangecentral.com/resources/c3views/C3Views200501_Issue13.pdf
Every day, 70 per cent of Canada’s crude oil and natural gas flows from Alberta wells, providing the energy needed to heat homes, power industries and drive cars. Alberta isn’t the only beneficiary, sharing its petroleum wealth with other parts of Canada and the United States...

While all this activity is generating economic benefits for Canada, it is also producing a significant portion of the country’s greenhouse gas emissions. According to Canada’s Greenhouse Gas Inventory, Canada’s petroleum industry in 2002 contributed about 143 million tonnes (Mt), or about 20 per cent of Canada’s total GHG emissions. Of that amount, upstream oil and gas production contributed 99.2 Mt, the transmission of natural gas 16.6 Mt and the downstream (refining and marketing) 27.6 Mt. Since 1990, the upstream petroleum industry’s emissions have risen by 29.6 Mt due to increasing
exports, which resulted in a 41.6 per cent growth in GDP...

“While some companies are hoping the Kyoto Protocol will go away, a lot of others are jumping on board,” says Shell Canada’s Roy Kanten, head engineer of energy and green-house gases, E&P. Shell Canada has long been on board, joining the Voluntary Challenge & Registry (VCR, now known as the Canadian GHG Challenge Registry) in the mid-1990s and reducing its exploration and production emissions by 333,000 tonnes between 2000 and 2003. Shell has set a very challenging voluntary target: to reduce its emissions by six per cent from 1990 levels by 2008, four years ahead of Canada’s overall pledge...

Similarly, BP is committed to maintaining its overall emissions at 2002 levels throughout its global operations, while still expanding the company’s business by five per cent a year. “We have to continue making reductions to make room for growth,” says Bryan Forsyth, BP Canada’s energy efficiency and emissions specialist.“Our goal, globally, is to improve our energy efficiency, from 2002 levels, by 15 per cent by 2012.”...
I would keep going but it's a very long PDF file...

This guy is just SOOO right..

“There’s very little taste in Calgary for buying foreign credits,” says BP Canada’s Bryan Forsyth.“The preference is to keep investing in Canada and finding a Canadian solution, rather than buying abroad.”
 

· Registered
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The industry self-regulation cannot be trusted as a matter of common sense. Either we change the structure of the corporation so that revenue isn't its only goal, or we regulate it. Since the former won't happen, and since voluntary targets tend to not be met, we need a way to tax consumption.

I do agree that foreign credits are generally smoke and mirrors, though, and are based on some questionable science (how much does a heatsink provide in CO2 relief...). Still... they're not a complete loss - properly invested credits (say, in the Amazon Rain Forest) can give some unstable ecosystems a second lease on life.
 

· Technocrat
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1,184 Posts
...or give some certain developing economies some investment...*cough* China *cough* <_<

Corporations are being pressured by public opinion. They don't need regulation. You act like anyone that works at a corporation isn't humane...

Consumption taxes are a good way to go, so long as they cut my income tax at the same time...

Think about it. How much more likely is it that I will go out and buy a hybrid car if you let me have a little more money in my pocket and then tell me that you'll tax the crap outta me if I buy an SUV??? Thus we make the one-tonne challenge possible for the average Joe.
 

· Registered
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Boris550 said:
Corporations are being pressured by public opinion. They don't need regulation. You act like anyone that works at a corporation isn't humane...
No, no. I have nothing against anyone that works at a corporation. A corporation is a legal entity that does what it is supposed to do, i.e. make money, relatively well. It has a extremely limited democratic mechanism, however; public opinion is easily shaped. Their contributions are often a few meaningless sponsorships instead of large-scale changes in the way they conduct business. There's exceptions, of course, corporations which lean towards a community structure model, in which revenue isn't a zero-sum game. But it's rare, and without some way to equal out the playing field, I don't think there's a future here.

Regulation, in the hard sense of the word of simply slapping a levy, may not be necessary in all instances though, as long as we move towards environmental accounting in which we come to recognize the true cost of environmental resources. These are remarkably underpriced at the moment.


Boris550 said:
Consumption taxes are a good way to go, so long as they cut my income tax at the same time...
Sure :yes:

The Green Party, if I remember, had the idea to eliminate the income tax alltogether arguing that the more self-sustainable you are, the less taxed you should be. So, instead of doing blank cheque income taxation, one is taxed according to their environmental footprint.

Indeed, there is some fairly persuading logic to this, although I've not made up my mind about it completely - a flaw in this plan is that it will be easier for a wealthy person working in the service industry to eliminate their environmental footprint than would be for the poor, so we may end up taxing those that, in part, depend on cheap, but inefficient and short-lasting, goods; a subsidy that is bracketed based on income levels may work in this case, though.

Basically, I've not made up my mind about the total elimination of income taxes, but an income tax reduction coupled with an appropriately levied consumption tax is a step in the right direction, I think.


Boris550 said:
Think about it. How much more likely is it that I will go out and buy a hybrid car if you let me have a little more money in my pocket and then tell me that you'll tax the crap outta me if I buy an SUV??? Thus we make the one-tonne challenge possible for the average Joe.
Indeed, I couldn't agree more.
 

· Technocrat
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1,184 Posts
^ I should say, I don't trust corporations completely either. I just feel that public pressure (remember, you are the consumer) does have a more powerful effect than is attributed to it. It's sad though, Canadians could be much more responsible consumers...

Heh, my mid-sized sedan is a few years older than the 13 years the Alberta government would like your car to be to turn it in. However, my Cutlass ain't going nowhere anytime soon...until I can afford to go out and buy something newer.

I've also been much more interested in the Greens lately. Who knows, I might vote for them provincially...
 

· Ex-mod
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8,300 Posts
Discussion Starter · #28 ·
After years of jabbing Kyoto, the CONSERVATIVES now support KYOTO. Yes, this is no joke. They're definetely preparing for another election and if they do win, they'll probably backstab Kyoto.


Harper is the new Mr. Dithers.
 

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^ a prudent political move is what it is, though. A solid majority is behind Kyoto; Alberta will vote for Conservatives regardless, and this makes them more palattable elsewhere. I'm sure the other parties will milk this about face for all it is worth, however.
 

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Boris550 said:
^ I should say, I don't trust corporations completely either. I just feel that public pressure (remember, you are the consumer) does have a more powerful effect than is attributed to it. It's sad though, Canadians could be much more responsible consumers...
I don't know, public opinion seems quite easily manipulated, and with the corporation's ability to purchase airtime and other PR relation gimmicks, people can easily fall prey to corporations. After all, no interest group is stronger than pro-business groups. Transfats is a clear example of how slow it takes the industry to respond to such health issues.

I tend to agree that the law's definition of corporation is to be blamed for this mess.
 

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salvius said:
^ a prudent political move is what it is, though. A solid majority is behind Kyoto; Alberta will vote for Conservatives regardless, and this makes them more palattable elsewhere. I'm sure the other parties will milk this about face for all it is worth, however.
The Conservatives are slowly morphing into the liberal party in the sense that they're abandoning everything they believe in just to get votes. It wasn't all that long ago that Stephen Harper was part of the National Citizen's Coalition, a group that was founded by insurance companies to fight universal heathcare. It also wasn't long ago that he stood in the went on Fox news to appologize for Canada's refusal to go to Iraq, and him standing in the house of commons to say that abortion should be illegal.

McKay must be kicking himself, though. He probably could have been the next Prime Minister if he didn't merge with the Alliance, LIKE HE PROMISED HE WOULDN'T.

I'm voting Green.
 

· Registered
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^ maybe the Conservatives are finally realizing that the only way to win is to forget about much of the Alliance wing, and pay more attention to the reddish PC wing. Our political tastes in Canada (for better or worse) are fairly narrow and generally centrist. The old job of the (with a slight exception of Mulroney) Progressive Conservatives was to be the Liberals when we got mad of Liberals enough to throw them out. So yeah, if PC still existed, I would bet serious money that the party would go right back to the top.

Well, the current Conservatives are realizing, 'yes, we need to out-Liberal Liberals,' a strategy they were flirting with, but one they could never quite pull off, during the last election. Their future success will fully depend on how much they embrace the red Tory ideals.

On a completely unrelated note, McKay is a dick. He sold what could have been a viable party once again for a dubious political gain. Ugh.
 

· Ex-mod
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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Victoria has two stadiums and they'll probably put in temporary seating into both stadiums. Its either Centennial Stadium or Royal Athletic Park. Does anybody know which one it is?
 
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