[TheFly]

So, a new TV deal starts in the next few months worth 30% more than the last one, with mobile and internet rights to follow (so more still!).

The TV revenues are a huge part of UTD's revenues...up say £15m per season
Shirt sponsership up £7m per season?
Ground capacity up £10m per season?

Interest payments on the debt were said to be c£30m per season...and look they have just increased income by c£32m per season already!

With each passing year this revunue increases and the debt (`mortgage') is reduced.

I think the Glazer's have made a killing and are going nowhere.

 

[Metrolink]

Bollox - revenue up due to fleecing the fans - 20% rise this year.

Ground cacacity was going up with the old PLC, as was the TV revenue.

If it wasn't for the Glazers then the TV money and ground reciepts could be spent on players rather than the hedge funds.

 

[TheFly]

Crying shame £30m is going out of the window... you only need to add 2/3 players to a squad a season and with the £30-£50m profits we already made then we would have been more able to challenge Chelsea on expenditure...

regardless of the fact Chelsea have bought more crap players than us (Crespo, Essien, Duff, Roben etc etc..) in a head to head, with our name and a 75,000 audience every game we CAN compete with Chelsea.

I suppose we are just going to have to settle with being the 2nd richest team in Europe.

 

[Metrolink]

Yes - but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for us having to pay the £30m in interest - it is a drain on the fans - we are the people paying these hedge funds the money - I'd much rather MY money was spent on players rather thanks rich yanks.

And yes it is MY money, I pay getting on for £600 a year on a seson ticket, and getting on for £700 for Sky and Prem Plus every year.

 

[Manc99]

Of course it all depends on your view point on life, if your a shallow **** I suppose the Glazers talk your language, and everything is positive. Yet people who have followed United for years are being driven out, and the 120 year old Manchester club has become a franchise and cash cow, thats money leaving the area for multinational banks and a new extension to the family home in Tampa, nice work. And before you go on about PLC'dem, I wasnt a fan of that either, so dont even bother coming back with that retort.

The Problem is Im not sure even if you were shallow you'd have a lot to shout about this season, its all about success for shallow people isnt it, potential third and league cup good enough for you Fly? Oh and debt repayments are still around the necks of the club and will be for the long term, even with the new deal you are only just breaking even. Not a good situation for a franchise.

Ignore the fact that a great big divide has been created between families and friends with the turmoil of last May, over the next couple of years more and more life long supporters will be forced not to renew, and turn into armchair supporters. If someone can explain to me the positives of this I would love to hear it. To me its the soul of the club being aroded, hows that a plus?

Season ticket sales are up, yet demand for membership ticket purchases are down, one bad season and we'll see how this will effect the Glazers'.

Its funny that this thread has based itself on the ability for the club to pay back its debts, when before last season, it was always about the ability to win the league, amazing how people's priorities change. Least your happy though Fly, its all good

 

[Isaac Newell]

Yes - but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for us having to pay the £30m in interest - it is a drain on the fans - we are the people paying these hedge funds the money - I'd much rather MY money was spent on players rather thanks rich yanks.

And yes it is MY money, I pay getting on for £600 a year on a seson ticket, and getting on for £700 for Sky and Prem Plus every year.

If you don't like it don't go. I stopped years ago, I wear decent clothes now

 

[TheFly]

Who said I was happy?

I dislike the Glazers. They have a duty to keep the fans informed, they do not do this.
The Glazers are the syptoms of the curse left to us by the stock market flotation.

Can you not form an opinion without slagging?

Where do I support the Glazers?

I stated they have made a killing buying UTD, if I had the money I would have bought them as well.

Perhaps the doomsday scenario spouted by certain Utd fans last year is looking daft 12mths on? It is their rabid fundamentalism, informing the media and the world at large that the club was finished and there would be vast swathes of empty seats that made me inform my opinion that they are not worthy of being listened to.

I was told the Glazer's business plan was not going to work by the ever -eager to damn united press, 12 months on the Glazers and the banks are laughing. That does not mean I am happy.

As I stated above and you failed to read, £30m is going out of the club each season to pay a new debt. This is a crying shame for us, but only Martin Edwards, Midani and the other board members from c1991 are to blame, not the Glazers or us current fans paying the price with turnstile increases that would not have been necessary.

As I say hats off to the Glazers' business plan, they were right, some Utd fans were very wrong.

 

[andysimo123]

Do you guys know what happens at the end of the tax year with profits? Well 40% goes to the Govenment so if United make average £60 million profit per year thats about £20 odd million out the window anyway. If they dont make as much profit its because the money has been spent on the debt so it means theres less tax. So infact its not £30 million extra out the window each year is it? I bet if someone works it out its about £30 million debt + tax. Still bad but if you put other factors in aka tax saved, its not all bad.

 

[TheFly]

Of course it all depends on your view point on life, if your a shallow **** I suppose the Glazers talk your language, and everything is positive. Yet people who have followed United for years are being driven out, and the 120 year old Manchester club has become a franchise and cash cow, thats money leaving the area for multinational banks and a new extension to the family home in Tampa, nice work. And before you go on about PLC'dem, I wasnt a fan of that either, so dont even bother coming back with that retort.

The Problem is Im not sure even if you were shallow you'd have a lot to shout about this season, its all about success for shallow people isnt it, potential third and league cup good enough for you Fly? Oh and debt repayments are still around the necks of the club and will be for the long term, even with the new deal you are only just breaking even. Not a good situation for a franchise.

Ignore the fact that a great big divide has been created between families and friends with the turmoil of last May, over the next couple of years more and more life long supporters will be forced not to renew, and turn into armchair supporters. If someone can explain to me the positives of this I would love to hear it. To me its the soul of the club being aroded, hows that a plus?

Season ticket sales are up, yet demand for membership ticket purchases are down, one bad season and we'll see how this will effect the Glazers'.

Its funny that this thread has based itself on the ability for the club to pay back its debts, when before last season, it was always about the ability to win the league, amazing how people's priorities change. Least your happy though Fly, its all good

Why do you think I am happy paying higher season ticket prices?
Who is?
We all have a views on the Glazers, but me like 70,000 others each week have seen there is nothing that can be reasonably done so we just carry on doing what we have always liked to do...support United.

Happy with 2 or 3rd?
Happy with the worthless cup?

How can you speak my mind, where have I stated I am happy with the piss-poor performances and horse buying manager?

Stick to the post, can you say the Glazers have failed, or have they made a killing?

 

[TheFly]

Do you guys know what happens at the end of the tax year with profits? Well 40% goes to the Govenment so if United make average £60 million profit per year thats about £20 odd million out the window anyway. If they dont make as much profit its because the money has been spent on the debt so it means theres less tax. So infact its not £30 million extra out the window each year is it? I bet if someone works it out its about £30 million debt + tax. Still bad but if you put other factors in aka tax saved, its not all bad.

Yes, I did but thanks.

That was why we kept buying players and expanding the stadium otherwise the tax man would have taken the 40%.

There is a good chance the south-stand will be expanded in 5 years or so time, when the current expansion comes off the bottom line.

Does anyone know if the £275m MU Ltd debt will mean NO tax is payed on operating profits for the next XX years.... thus if we are making £50m profit a year, as we did last year then that £50m COULD pay off a huge chunk of the debt in one go with crafty accounting etc???

 

[Manc99]

Why do you think I am happy paying higher season ticket prices?
Who is?
We all have a views on the Glazers, but me like 70,000 others each week have seen there is nothing that can be reasonably done so we just carry on doing what we have always liked to do...support United.

Happy with 2 or 3rd?
Happy with the worthless cup?

How can you speak my mind, where have I stated I am happy with the piss-poor performances and horse buying manager?

Stick to the post, can you say the Glazers have failed, or have they made a killing?

I Stand by everything I have said. As for your snivelling effort for a response, Ive seen your posts on the FC thread and Old Trafford expansion thread, and think I know you well enough to know you are happy with the status quo and happy to go along with it, and anybody brave enough to do something about you hold with contempt.

I have no idea what purpose this thread holds other then to try and confirm your arguements in the past that the Glazers are infact good for United. As I have posted, this couldnt be further from the truth.

 

[Longsight M13]

Yes, I did but thanks.

That was why we kept buying players and expanding the stadium otherwise the tax man would have taken the 40%.

There is a good chance the south-stand will be expanded in 5 years or so time, when the current expansion comes off the bottom line.

Does anyone know if the £275m MU Ltd debt will mean NO tax is payed on operating profits for the next XX years.... thus if we are making £50m profit a year, as we did last year then that £50m COULD pay off a huge chunk of the debt in one go with crafty accounting etc???

Interest on debt is deductible from profits before tax, but not capital repayments, so no - crafty accounting could not pay off any of the debt.


Really, you should be comparing dividends and taxation before the takeover to interest payments now - that's the comparison we need to make.

2004 - Corporation Tax = £8.6M, Dividends = 7.0M --- Total = 15.6M
2005 - Corporation Tax = £4.2M, Dividends = 3.4M --- Total = 7.6M


Now the current debt:

J P Morgan £55m over 7 years @ LIBOR + 2.75% pa (7.35)
J P Morgan £62.5m over 7.5/8 years @LIBOR + 3.25% pa (7.85)
J P Morgan £62.5m over 8.5/9 years @ LIBOR + 3.75% pa (8.35)
J P Morgan £85m over 10 years @ LIBOR + 6.5% pa (11.10)
J P Morgan £18.9m overdraft to 31/03/2006 @ LIBOR + 2.75% pa (7.35)
J P Morgan £50m revolving credit over 7 years @ LIBOR + 2.75% pa (7.35)
J P Morgan £40m capital facility over 7 years @ LIBOR + 2.75% pa (7.35)

LIBOR currently stands at 4.60%. The bracketed figures indicate rate payable. Ignoring capital repayment, the interest payable alone at the given rates is £31,610,000.

However, this is only the bank debt; it doesn't take into account the hedge funds. 30m a year is only the start of it.

Citadel Horizon, Perry Capital and OZ Management have also provided funding of £275m via the purchase of Preferred Securities in Red Joint Venture, which is one of the ultimate holding companies of Manchester United Limited, via Red Football etc. The interest payable on this loan is rolled up for payment at a later date. The estimated interest rate is 14% to 20% per annum, due to the higher risk involved. At 14% pa, interest is therefore rolling up at £38,500,000 each year.

(The information quoted can be found on pages 6, 68 and 69 of the official offer document issued by NM Rothschild.)


So, your "£30m and everything's sweet" approach doesn't really fly. It's £70m, so there's still a £40m hole even if your analysis of the additional revenue is correct and even if the hedge funds are raping us at the lowest estimated interest rate.

In any case, the true comparison should be with the status quo before the takeover. £7m of fans' money leaving the company in 2004-5 has become £70m in 2005-6. Still, as long as there's fools in the world, people like Glazer will always be able to make a buck off them. Don't feed the greed.

 

[Chorltonred]

The 'doomsday scenario' forecast by the clued up elements of United's support was not that there would be swathes of empty seats, but rather that:

- in order to service the debt ticket prices would rise at a rate way above inflation each season

- that as a result 'swathes' of United's longstanding and loyal support would be priced out of Old Trafford

- those so priced out would be replaced by tourists and day trippers and that as a result the atmosphere at the 'theatre of dreams' would deteriorate even further

- that the burden of the debt would render us less competitive in the transfer market and lead to cutbacks off and on the pitch. As a result performance would suffer.

- the club would become more and more focused on financial priorities (if that were possible), concentrating on commercial and TV opprtunities rather than events on the pitch

In a nutshell, the fans would be fleeced more, both directly and indirectly, in order to service the debts whilst the performance of the team was likely to deteriorate.

I would say that the doomsday scenario is panning out just as expected. The fact that this thread is attempting to celebrate earning more income rather than winning trophies says it all.

As for the Gimp's 'achievements':

- The sponsorship deal is smaller than that earned by Juventus, a smaller club. It is marginally bigger than Chelsea, a much smaller club. Their negotiating tactics may well drive Mansion into the hands of Liverpoo - an even smaller club.

- The TV deal would have happened irrespective of them.

- The new quadrants have nothing to do with them, and I reckon they would have pulled the plug had they got ownership a few months earlier. As for the price rises earning extra income - whoppeedoo.

As already stated on this thread, this is but a drop in the ocean compared to the interest burden racking up on the debt, never mind the capital repayments. We have gone from being a huge cash cow generating funds for the team and the stadium, to a slightly larger cash cow generating funds for banks.

Not one penny from me.

 

[ForeverSalfordRed]

So, a new TV deal starts in the next few months worth 30% more than the last one, with mobile and internet rights to follow (so more still!).

The TV revenues are a huge part of UTD's revenues...up say £15m per season
Shirt sponsership up £7m per season?
Ground capacity up £10m per season?

Interest payments on the debt were said to be c£30m per season...and look they have just increased income by c£32m per season already!

With each passing year this revunue increases and the debt (`mortgage') is reduced.

I think the Glazer's have made a killing and are going nowhere.

What has this nonsense got to do with skyscrapers? Isnt there a sports forum for this kind of thing? Unbelievable.

 

[TheFly]

Hello !

I do not like the Glazers< I do not like price rises.

I DO respect their business acumen.

You can hold these opinions and still support Utd.

From the attendances and the faces I see in T2 stretty most people agree or don't care. I aint Glazer.

Yes I hate FCUTD for its twee assumptions and seeming demands for UTD fans to leave the cause.

 

[TheFly]

Interest on debt is deductible from profits before tax, but not capital repayments, so no - crafty accounting could not pay off any of the debt.


Really, you should be comparing dividends and taxation before the takeover to interest payments now - that's the comparison we need to make.

2004 - Corporation Tax = £8.6M, Dividends = 7.0M --- Total = 15.6M
2005 - Corporation Tax = £4.2M, Dividends = 3.4M --- Total = 7.6M


Now the current debt:

J P Morgan £55m over 7 years @ LIBOR + 2.75% pa (7.35)
J P Morgan £62.5m over 7.5/8 years @LIBOR + 3.25% pa (7.85)
J P Morgan £62.5m over 8.5/9 years @ LIBOR + 3.75% pa (8.35)
J P Morgan £85m over 10 years @ LIBOR + 6.5% pa (11.10)
J P Morgan £18.9m overdraft to 31/03/2006 @ LIBOR + 2.75% pa (7.35)
J P Morgan £50m revolving credit over 7 years @ LIBOR + 2.75% pa (7.35)
J P Morgan £40m capital facility over 7 years @ LIBOR + 2.75% pa (7.35)

LIBOR currently stands at 4.60%. The bracketed figures indicate rate payable. Ignoring capital repayment, the interest payable alone at the given rates is £31,610,000.

However, this is only the bank debt; it doesn't take into account the hedge funds. 30m a year is only the start of it.

Citadel Horizon, Perry Capital and OZ Management have also provided funding of £275m via the purchase of Preferred Securities in Red Joint Venture, which is one of the ultimate holding companies of Manchester United Limited, via Red Football etc. The interest payable on this loan is rolled up for payment at a later date. The estimated interest rate is 14% to 20% per annum, due to the higher risk involved. At 14% pa, interest is therefore rolling up at £38,500,000 each year.

(The information quoted can be found on pages 6, 68 and 69 of the official offer document issued by NM Rothschild.)


So, your "£30m and everything's sweet" approach doesn't really fly. It's £70m, so there's still a £40m hole even if your analysis of the additional revenue is correct and even if the hedge funds are raping us at the lowest estimated interest rate.

In any case, the true comparison should be with the status quo before the takeover. £7m of fans' money leaving the company in 2004-5 has become £70m in 2005-6. Still, as long as there's fools in the world, people like Glazer will always be able to make a buck off them. Don't feed the greed.

The banks lent the money assuming they would eventually take control of the club when the Glazers defaulted?

The business plan, if we assume that JP Morgan and the Glazers have better financial analysists then us, would pay the debt off over a number of years.

All, loans look horrific at the start but over the life time of the loan with income increasing it becomes less painful.

I differ from the FC UTD boys on the income side. If the team is successful the Glazers will have stacks of cash. If the team is moderate, they will struggle. Despite our current form, financially it is a successful season.

This is not comparing this seasons `success' with previous years, but in the context of paying off the debt, it is enough.

The main consideration with regard to the Glazers is that even if the club struggles with the loans they could re-float the club ang more than likely get their £800m back. The FC UTD premise on Utd is that the club will disappear financially, when the Glazers have just mortgaged an asset, which can be repayed or floated back on the stock market.

I hate this.

People seem to have missed the point. With the latest financial figures I doubt the Glazers will have any problems with the debt, ergo they have made a killing.

Please do not mistake that view point with approval of them or their business methods.... Rupert Murdoch fleeces the UK taxpayer but how many FC Utd fans have SKY? I want to watch UTD and I have no choice in who owns the club.

 

[Chorltonred]

Hello !

I do not like the Glazers< I do not like price rises.

I DO respect their business acumen.

You can hold these opinions and still support Utd.

From the attendances and the faces I see in T2 stretty most people agree or don't care. I aint Glazer.

Yes I hate FCUTD for its twee assumptions and seeming demands for UTD fans to leave the cause.

You obviously don't understand anything about FC United, so I'd give it a rest before you insult more people on here.

 

[TheFly]

You obviously don't understand anything about FC United, so I'd give it a rest before you insult more people on here.

Sorry, i forgot if you support UTD and don't give a monkeys who owns the club and also dislike the reasons for fans setting up a rival club then you are not entiltled to an opinion but it is OK for others to have a pop with insulting personal language. Tremendous!

I dislike the Glazer's owning UTD
I don't like FC Utd and its charter and reason for being set up-lots of people do, lots don't.
I support Utd and will go as long as I can afford to.

It's an opinion, the thread was asking have the Glazers made a killing financially...I think they are going to make a fortune, from TV money, the fans at the ground, the internet etc etc....

 

[Chorltonred]

I didn't mention FC United, you did, and I didn't insult you. I gave you my comments on how the Glazers were doing, which you asked for.

However you did state that you 'hate' FC United, and as a member of the club I felt insulted by that, as well as by your insinuations that FC fans hate big United, when the opposite is true.

As I said, just drop the FC United issue. It has been done to death and this is not a footbal forum anyway. What was the point of this thread on here except to antagonise people on all sides of the debate? I wish I'd never replied.

 

[TheFly]

You haven't replied, no one has so I agree about the thread.

Have the Glazers made a killing?
I think they will make a fortune, people implied I was happy with that, why would I be? I am happy for UTD to be successful, the by product of that is the Glazers make piles of cash.