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10th February 2008
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Currently being discussed on the Deansgate Square thread after honolulu bob posted his picture. See below

Click on the link for the rest of the Place North West article.

COMMENT | Free Manchester’s doughnut

11 Jun 2018, 11:02

Mark Slocombe Callison RTKLBring up a map of Manchester’s city centre, and then gradually zoom out. Just as the urban density and gleaming high-rises of the centre give way to lower density housing and industrial uses, stop zooming, writes Mark Slocombe of CallisonRTKL. See that bit of the city that encircles the centre, lying inauspiciously between the leafy suburbs and the urban core? That’s Manchester’s ‘doughnut’, and despite its potentially delectable qualities, it is being woefully ignored by hungry developers.



https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/comment-free-manchesters-doughnut/

Picture by honolulu bob.

That photo highlights just how much hard work and gentrification the inner city needs. There is so much potential and space for development.
It's like this for miles, got the shuttle bus to Parklife at Heaton Park and as every year you can hear people commenting on it. One guy from Texas told me he's never seen a scarier place. The amount of dereliction is crazy.
I don’t know which way you went to heaton park but it’s hardly derelict. The yanks do like to exaggerate. If it scares him then he should man up or go home.
Seriously though, when you come from many places abroad, parts of Manchester do really look scary are derelict. I've grown to love living in this city since moving here two years ago, but what I saw when I first came here scared the shit out of me - I had never seen so much dereliction in a developed city before in my life.

I think a lot of people get so used to it that they don't notice it anymore.

This is not putting Manchester down as there are plenty of really nice parts of town (actually a lot of nice parts), but places like that shown above really can be shocking to people who have never seen them before. This is why I am so happy when I see developments like on this thread. We need to fill these places up with high quality developments.
Place North West.

Professional team appointed for £1bn Northern Gateway

Far East Consortium has chosen its professional team for the £1bn Northern Gateway project, including masterplanner Farrells, cost consultant Turner & Townsend, and planning consultant HOW.

Landscape architect Planit IE, engineering, transport, remediation and sustainability consultant Arup, economic development consultant Regeneris, and project manager Buro4 also join the team for the £1bn project, which could deliver more than 10,000 new homes in North Manchester over the next 10 years.





https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/professional-team-appointed-for-1bn-northern-gateway/
 

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10th February 2008
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Just to add.

Hulme is a very good example of what can be done and achieved when you get a redeveloped and reborn inner city suburb right. I find it an attractive inner city area, pleasant, and it feels safe to walk around. It's not perfect and is still a little frayed around the edges, especially the Trafford end, but compared to the old Hulme, it's a million times better.





East Manchester has similar potential.

North Manchester is different and more difficult to redevelop and change. I think it's a social issue there.
 

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Originally Posted by AJD1984 View Post
I don’t know which way you went to heaton park but it’s hardly derelict. The yanks do like to exaggerate. If it scares him then he should man up or go home.
Can't say I agree ADJ as I've had an identical comment from an international visitor on a Metrolink trip to Heaton Park. Sometimes an outsider's perspective is the most objective and accurate.

That PNW article didn't make any sense to me and it sounds like the author doesn't know what's happening in Manchester. Developments around Cornbrook/Middlewood Locks disprove the premise of his argument - developers aren't neglecting the outer areas of the city centre they are just building on the immediate outskirts of the city centre core like any sensible developer would - eventually the city should hopefully expand fully to the suburbs.

I would wager there would be even more activity on areas further out now if landowners weren't asking for unrealistic prices on industrial/warehouse land to reflect the higher amount of risk the developer is taking in more remote areas.

This might be a bold prediction but I wouldn't be surprised if Manchester's doughnut alone sees more development than all other city centres apart from London over the next
decade.
 

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10th February 2008
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Can't say I agree ADJ as I've had an identical comment from an international visitor on a Metrolink trip to Heaton Park. Sometimes an outsider's perspective is the most objective and accurate.

That PNW article didn't make any sense to me and it sounds like the author doesn't know what's happening in Manchester. Developments around Cornbrook/Middlewood Locks disprove the premise of his argument - developers aren't neglecting the outer areas of the city centre they are just building on the immediate outskirts of the city centre core like any sensible developer would - eventually the city should hopefully expand fully to the suburbs.

I would wager there would be even more activity on areas further out now if landowners weren't asking for unrealistic prices on industrial/warehouse land to reflect the higher amount of risk the developer is taking in more remote areas.

This might be a bold prediction but I wouldn't be surprised if Manchester's doughnut alone sees more development than all other city centres apart from London over the next
decade.
I think he means speed of?

How many of the 63 cranes are in the inner core, and how many are in the doughnut? There are plenty of proposals and talk about the doughnut area, but little actual development. Even ADUG and Manchester Life haven't strayed past Ancoats, New Islington, and around the Etihad Campus yet. Salford seems to be doing their bit from Regent Road, Middlewood Locks, and the Crescent.
 

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I think he means speed of?

How many of the 63 cranes are in the inner core, and how many are in the doughnut? There are plenty of proposals and talk about the doughnut area, but little actual development. Even ADUG and Manchester Life haven't strayed past Ancoats, New Islington, and around the Etihad Campus yet. Salford seems to be doing their bit from Regent Road, Middlewood Locks, and the Crescent.
But why would ADUG/MCR Life go beyond Ancoats and New Islington when there are still huge undeveloped plots as close to Piccadilly Station as Great Ancoats Street. I don't think the risk/reward balance will be better further out as the land won't be discounted heavily enough. No developer wants to be caught out in the middle of a market crash with a major development in the middle of nowhere.

Anyway I think this is one of those things the market can actually figure out on its own. The industrial estate around the back of Piccadilly Station has masses of potential - my guess would be that there will be more activity in such areas as commercial leases on warehouses etc expire.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
But why would ADUG/MCR Life go beyond Ancoats and New Islington when there are still huge undeveloped plots as close to Piccadilly Station as Great Ancoats Street. I don't think the risk/reward balance will be better further out as the land won't be discounted heavily enough. No developer wants to be caught out in the middle of a market crash with a major development in the middle of nowhere.

Anyway I think this is one of those things the market can actually figure out on its own. The industrial estate around the back of Piccadilly Station has masses of potential - my guess would be that there will be more activity in such areas as commercial leases on warehouses etc expire.
Because they own large swathes of land around the Etihad, Holt Town, etc.

This is from Cibitas and shows a section of the Doughnut after Ancoats and New Islington. Much of the land is ready to be developed. Hopefully in the coming years it will be. TBF to ADUG they have redeveloped a large parcel of land around the CFA and have contributed to a new leisure centre, College, etc.





Even if ADUG funded PRS or affordable housing in the Doughnut, they could still return a profit.
But there is more profit to be made in the inner core, and long the inner ring Road, hence their current focus on that area, probably?
 

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Originally Posted by AJD1984 View Post
I don’t know which way you went to heaton park but it’s hardly derelict. The yanks do like to exaggerate. If it scares him then he should man up or go home.
The Parklife bus takes us down Rochdale Road, past the embassy club, past dozens of derelict buildings and empty plots, and this year a fair few Free Tommy Robinson tags. Every year on that bus people discuss how rough it looks and how scary it looks, brits, europeans, not just yanks. Remember these are mostly tourists, they're not used to it.Saying that I even know people from other parts of Manchester who are scared of anywhere North of the city centre, including the area round the City stadium.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The Parklife bus takes us down Rochdale Road, past the embassy club, past dozens of derelict buildings and empty plots, and this year a fair few Free Tommy Robinson tags. Every year on that bus people discuss how rough it looks and how scary it looks, brits, europeans, not just yanks. Remember these are mostly tourists, they're not used to it.Saying that I even know people from other parts of Manchester who are scared of anywhere North of the city centre, including the area round the City stadium.
TBH even I find North Manc rough. I don't go that way often, but when I do the difference between South Manchester and North Manchester is an eye opener. Put it this way, I wouldn't live in North Manchester, not even if I got a free house. That's no disrespect to North Manchester residents.

It's a bit like Milan/Naples in one city.
 

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10th February 2008
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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
You could easily draw a line to show where this doughnut effect starts heading into North Manchester. It isn't pretty. But the potential to redevelop it is there. However, it would take Wholesale regeneration, and another (2018) slum clearance programme to achieve it. Another Hulme.



 

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Bacon
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TBH even I find North Manc rough. I don't go that way often, but when I do the difference between South Manchester and North Manchester is an eye opener. Put it this way, I wouldn't live in North Manchester, not even if I got a free house. That's no disrespect to North Manchester residents.
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Plenty of north Manchester would come as a surprise to you then, jerbs. Prestwich for example, and Sedgley Park, Whitefield, all the areas around Heaton Park...

South Manchester on the whole is of course a bit nicer, but as dismal as Collyhurst & Miles Platting can be, you could say the same about Gorton, Longsight & Moss Side.
 

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Bacon
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The donut is far from a Manc phenomenon as well. Virtually every large British city has it, particularly in the north. The only exception is perhaps Bristol where it's a lot less noticeable, and virtually non existent on the north side of the city apart from a tiny pocket of Montpelier and St Pauls.
 

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That's not true. Newcastle, Sheffield, Nottingham and Hull are all relatively well knitted together between their city centres and inner city areas. The sheer scale of Manchester's inner slum clearance and resultant doughnut is only really shared with Birmingham and Leeds. Glasgow too - although it did retain many of it's West End tenements.
 

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Bacon
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Hull, Newcastle & Nottingham are on a slightly smaller scale though - nowhere near the size of a Manchester/Leeds/Birmingham type city. I don't know Sheffield that well tbh so I'll take your word for it :)
 

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Ape
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It's funny how, from the air, the worst of the dereliction looks quite green and pleasant. It's only when you zoom in that you see the greenery is actually all rosebay willowherb and thistles. And bloody sycamores... Don't get me started on bloody sycamores...

There's a certain amount of dereliction in North Manchester, but more dilapidation. The areas haven't been abandoned and gone to wrack and ruin, they've gone to wrack and ruin around their inhabitants. The state of their buildings is, in all likelihood, a reflection of their state of mind which in turn reflects their situation. If the poorest members of our society live tedious and uninspiring lives (as may well be unavoidable), then this is the inevitable effect.

Anyhoo... I live in one of the grottier areas of North Manchester - not far from the Embassy - and it's really not as bad as it looks. It's certainly not 'I wouldn't live in North Manchester, not even if I got a free house' bad. Besides, shirtless men and women who go shopping in their pyjamas have to live somewhere...
 

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Even in Newcastle and Sheffield there’s only an incomplete segment of urban continuity. West Sheffield flows nicely, but the east doesn’t; similarly Newcastle does to the west and north, but Gateshead and the east of the city are pretty similar to the Manc doughnut. Manchester is a particularly extreme case though. That’s a problem, but also an opportunity. Unfortunately not one I think our current private developer led model is capable of tackling.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Plenty of north Manchester would come as a surprise to you then, jerbs. Prestwich for example, and Sedgley Park, Whitefield, all the areas around Heaton Park...

South Manchester on the whole is of course a bit nicer, but as dismal as Collyhurst & Miles Platting can be, you could say the same about Gorton, Longsight & Moss Side.
I agree. But I would say those area's are North Manc suburbs, outside the doughnut.

There is little you can do with Longsight and Moss Side. It's pretty much done, with little or no plots to redevelop. They are what they are. Typical inner city suburbs. Gorton has some plots, but it's pretty much a basket case. They've already thrown money at it, but the area and streets along Mount Road have become a shithole again. It's looks rundown, there's litter everywhere, and tbh the residents don't give a shit. At best it's a sticking plaster job.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
It's funny how, from the air, the worst of the dereliction looks quite green and pleasant. It's only when you zoom in that you see the greenery is actually all rosebay willowherb and thistles. And bloody sycamores... Don't get me started on bloody sycamores...

There's a certain amount of dereliction in North Manchester, but more dilapidation. The areas haven't been abandoned and gone to wrack and ruin, they've gone to wrack and ruin around their inhabitants. The state of their buildings is, in all likelihood, a reflection of their state of mind which in turn reflects their situation. If the poorest members of our society live tedious and uninspiring lives (as may well be unavoidable), then this is the inevitable effect.

Anyhoo... I live in one of the grottier areas of North Manchester - not far from the Embassy - and it's really not as bad as it looks. It's certainly not 'I wouldn't live in North Manchester, not even if I got a free house' bad. Besides, shirtless men and women who go shopping in their pyjamas have to live somewhere...
I do apologise for that statement. It was too OTT.
 

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Ape
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I do apologise for that statement. It was too OTT.
No need to apologise. I certainly wasn't offended, I was just disagreeing with you. And, to be fair, you're half right. There certainly are parts of north Manchester that I wouldn't want to live in, myself, but that's equally true of south Manchester. I lived in Wythenshawe a few years ago. Again, that wasn't too bad because I was on a fairly busy road, but by God, some of the cul-de-sacs were a bit frightening... North and south Manchester distribute their wealth differently. In the south the poor are farther out, so you're not forced to drive through the squalor in order to be offended by aware of it.
 

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I agree. But I would say those area's are North Manc suburbs, outside the doughnut.

There is little you can do with Longsight and Moss Side. It's pretty much done, with little or no plots to redevelop. They are what they are. Typical inner city suburbs. Gorton has some plots, but it's pretty much a basket case. They've already thrown money at it, but the area and streets along Mount Road have become a shithole again. It's looks rundown, there's litter everywhere, and tbh the residents don't give a shit. At best it's a sticking plaster job.
Odd area Gorton. It has golf courses a couple of sailing clubs and some decent parks and open spaces, and yet it remains deprived. Sad really.
 

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Collyhurst used to have some serious 1930's art deco brick flats replaced by serious 1970's brutalist flats, plus miles of railway sidings around Miles Platting and Wilson's Brewery.

When large projects like that get demolished it's easy to leave large swathes of dereliction behind.

A pleasant yet hidden area of inner North Manchester can be found around Brookdale Park north of Clayton Vale.
 
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