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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm surprised to see nothing here about Yarra Trams' attempt to close down a third of the tram stops in Collins St. Supposedly in the name of accessibility as they are building platform stops, though it will actually be less accessible as people will have to walk twice as far. This sums it up nicely:

The man who runs Rialto Towers has slammed the Melbourne City Council's
decision to approve the removal of three Collins Street tram stops.

John Apps, managing director of the building, said he could not believe
the council had voted to approve the Yarra Trams plan, which will remove
a stop from outside the skyscraper.

"I don't know what the Town Hall is doing, but it is the Comedy Festival
this week and they're hosting it," he said.
From:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Natio...f-tourists-stop/2005/04/13/1113251681454.html (April 14, 2005)
 

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pfff i'm not too worried 'bout it. It is an important step to keep Collins St flowing. People can't walk an extra 50m to a tram stop???? Lazy asses
 

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It won't keep Collins St flowing, not by a long shot. What logic are you basing that statement on?
 

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If a tram has to stop at a traffic light, it might as well pick up passengers. Its not meant to be heavy rail - its a street level tram!
 

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Granted, but the lights are only red (and thus the stop is non-disrupting) half the time! the other half cars are held up with people crossing the road after disembarking the tram.

Seriously, the larger 'superstops' with customer serivce reps, ticket machines, change machines, shelter, timetable info are far superior than the smaller stops - insofar as the amenities provided and their capability to serve a greater number of tram users.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
So you're complaining that tram passengers are holding up cars? *sigh*

I'd complain that more often than not, it's the cars that hold up trams, blocking the fairway, etc. Traffic signals are programmed to favour cars over trams, when it should be the other way around.

Closing a third of CBD shops is a very bad thing. Any extra capacity that you gain from super stops is far outweighed by this. Not only this, though there's no point speeding up trams when you're making people spend twice the time saved to walk the extra distance to a stop.
 

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Actually, the lights are red most of the time. Traffic lights are programmed to give cars a clear run, not trams, and it's an either/or choice. The light will still be red most of the time, same as it is for westbound trams leaving the Collins/Swanston super stop at the pedestrian lights half way to Elizabeth St.
 

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Firstly, Mr. Austux, I am not some rampaging-anti-public-transportation-car-driving-nut! I use the 109 tram every second day

When evaluating this decision made by the powers-that-be; consider that the smaller and regular tram stops are left over from a time when melbourne was a significantly smaller town - the demands on Collins St, traffic wise, was substantially smaller.

Another factor to consider (albeit a small one!) are the larger and longer trams which currently serve this route. As more and more people use these vehicles of increased capasity, you will find that more and more people alight at the said mini-stops, and more people = slower traffic

Actually, the lights are red most of the time.
Sorry PC, but how is this possible? Most of the time? So you are saying that intersecting streets (Russel, Exhibition...) get a better run of it that traffic on Collins? I am surprised, I beleive you, but still surprised.

I'd complain that more often than not, it's the cars that hold up trams, blocking the fairway, etc.
Its a two-way-street Austux. The whole point of removing the stops is to eliminate the need for trams to stop in fairways. If the tram only stops in a 'superstop' zone - where, mind, no car is allowed - in what way does this contribute to the problem?
EDIT: I now see what you mean. The problem is this: Cars block the trams, and the trams, in turn, block the cars (in non clearway times and smaller stops due to people disembarking). Okay so you can't remove the cars (not a practical option), but how about removing those stops - Eliminates half the problem!!!!

there's no point speeding up trams when you're making people spend twice the time saved to walk the extra distance to a stop.
The issue is with travel times and Collins Street, that is purely what this decision is based upon. So what if people have to walk an extra 50-100m, we're not talking kilometers here!
 

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There are a lot of people who consider 9 stops from Spencer to Spring, at each intersection, non-negotiable under any circumstance. I'm one of them.

If we're lucky, dragging Yarra Trams through the mud every time they bring up these hare-brained ideas might discourage them from proposing them in future. At the very least, it reduces the speed of deployment. Sooner or later they will leave Melbourne, and the less damage they do to our system, the better.

As for no cars, that'll be a reality in 10-15 years anyway thanks to Peak Oil. It's not a concern, just like growing congestion is also not a concern. Discouraging people from using PT by abolishing stops is however a concern during the transition.
 

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^^^ Pff alternate fuel sources....
One could argue that with 'peak oil' prices we will no longer see trams in our fair city..what will oil the wheels?? lol :lol:
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Bca said:
Another factor to consider (albeit a small one!) are the larger and longer trams which currently serve this route. As more and more people use these vehicles of increased capasity, you will find that more and more people alight at the said mini-stops, and more people = slower traffic
So you're saying the solution would be to have trams that run express through Collins St without carrying passengers? I bet that's exactly what Yarra Trams would love to do.

Though all seriousness now, if you close these stops and the same number of people continue to catch trams, then the trams are just going to stop longer at the stops that remain. They won't get any faster.

Its a two-way-street Austux. The whole point of removing the stops is to eliminate the need for trams to stop in fairways. If the tram only stops in a 'superstop' zone - where, mind, no car is allowed - in what way does this contribute to the problem?
EDIT: I now see what you mean. The problem is this: Cars block the trams, and the trams, in turn, block the cars (in non clearway times and smaller stops due to people disembarking). Okay so you can't remove the cars (not a practical option), but how about removing those stops - Eliminates half the problem!!!!
So public transport users can get screwed while motorists continue to speed down Collins St?

No, it is not a problem if trams block cars. The cars shouldn't be on the tram tracks in the first place. Yet that is the main contributing factor towards slowing down trams lately.

Removing stops is not at all a satisfactory solution.

The issue is with travel times and Collins Street, that is purely what this decision is based upon. So what if people have to walk an extra 50-100m, we're not talking kilometers here!
Correction, 200m.

If you want to speed up trams, then the only solution is to give trams proper priority at traffic lights. Obviously this is not possibly at Elizabeth or Swanston Streets, so instead you can change traffic signal cycle times from 90 seconds to 60 seconds. You might also but a concrete kerb along the tram tracks so cars physically can't get in the way of trams. All this would speed up trams without coming at a cost to passengers.
 

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Bca said:
^^^ Pff alternate fuel sources....
http://www.ptua.org.au/myths/fuels.shtml

Bca said:
One could argue that with 'peak oil' prices we will no longer see trams in our fair city..what will oil the wheels?? lol :lol:
If you knew the first thing about peak oil, you would not have said that. Peak Oil is not about running out, it's about running short. There is an important difference.
 

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Does this BCA chap represent the Bus and Coach Association?
 

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So you're saying the solution would be to have trams that run express through Collins St without carrying passengers?
Yeh...thats exactly what I'm saying. C'mon, I thought we we're having an educated and adult debate here...

Its Collins STREET, not Collins Light Railway! Removing cars is not the issue here. The move by YT is to simply integrate the trams with the cars.

Does this BCA chap represent the Bus and Coach Association?
No I don't. Gee, criticism of one's username. I can see where this conversation is headed

If you knew the first thing about peak oil, you would not have said that
Oh and you do? I say whatever the hell I want to say.

From the "PUTA" website (a refutable source if ever i saw one)
"Many alternative fuels do nothing to fix local air pollution, merely substituting one noxious chemical for another. Others such as natural gas or ethanol are impossible to produce on the scale required. This leaves electricity and hydrogen, but as these are energy carriers rather than fuels they must themselves be produced using some other fuel, which just pushes the problem up one level."

Says who? A group of disenchanted public transport users from Melbourne, Australia? :lol: Using only select sources of information can present a very convincing aguement indeed...
That website has about as much credible information as, well...

Economics, like it or not, governs the world and the way in which everyone on this planet lives. Now do you HONESTLY beleive that once oil dries up (or becomes too pricey, as you allude to) we'll all say: "well, that was fun. Back to horse and wagon boys!"? Mankind will find another source of fuel that is easy and safe to use - Its called technical evolution. Because it does not exist currently does not mean it won't exist in the future. How do you propose society has progressed to its current modernised state without discovery and innovation?

The ecnonomic engine-room of the world will not let transport industries like shipping, personal transport, air travel, logistics etc.. just come to a stand-still. It WONT happen. Period.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Bca said:
Yeh...thats exactly what I'm saying. C'mon, I thought we we're having an educated and adult debate here...
You suggestions implied that, if not, they'd have that effect. Closing tram stops does nothing for passengers, while keeping the traffic light sequences as they are does more for the motorists.

Its Collins STREET, not Collins Light Railway! Removing cars is not the issue here. The move by YT is to simply integrate the trams with the cars.
Street public transport isn't about integrating trams with cars at all. It's about running public transport to where people actually want to go. Of course, closing stops only goes further against that. Now if it was light-rail, it probably would be acceptable to have fewer stops. But we're talking about a street car service through one of Melbourne's busiest streets.

This aside, the priorities should be 1) pedestrians/cyclists 2) public transport 3) cars. Removing stops so cars can get a better run is certainly not acceptable. Even to speed up trams, it's still not acceptable, when the real solution is to optimise traffic signals in favour of trams rather than cars.

So I'm surprised you still see the removal of tram stops in the CBD as being acceptable. Obviously your stop isn't one of the ones to be affected.
 

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Well, I reckon it worked out OK ...



Building those "super-stops" in Collins Street & elsewhere was certainly an improvement to the system, even if it did mean you had to walk up to 200 metres extra.

At least they gave you a bit of shelter (Flinders Street):



A few of these ancient stops remain in Collins St. :



Thank God there aren't too many cars!
 

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the ancient stops are as a result of non-agreement between DOT and Road Authoritise (VicRoads and Council) as to the preferred location for stops in the area. I also think it might have had something to do with not being 100% sure how to deal with Collins Street extension and Southern Cross Station upgrades which were both projects running roughly concurrently with the Collins Street tram works.

anyway I'm sure those last few stops will be sorted out in the next couple of years.
 

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Removing a third of Melbourne's tram stops across the board would probably be a good outcome given how many there are in the network.

And the problem with having tram stops at every set of traffic lights would be that most of the time, the tram would be stuck there for two traffic cycles. Especially when the space for waiting passengers is so narrow that everyone would just block each other. There's nothing good at all about the safety zone style of tram stop, and thankfully new DDA regulations will be bringing them to an end.

(I know this is responding to 5 year old posts)
 

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....
And the problem with having tram stops at every set of traffic lights would be that most of the time, the tram would be stuck there for two traffic cycles. Especially when the space for waiting passengers is so narrow that everyone would just block each other. There's nothing good at all about the safety zone style of tram stop, and thankfully new DDA regulations will be bringing them to an end. ....
In practice there were many more trams than at present and the trams capacity was less so that the narrow safety zone was mostly adequate on all streets except Swanston Street. So trams only stopped for one light cycle and there was a tram at every intersection dropping off and picking up during every red light phase.

Now you can look up/down streets and see no trams in sight and I have found that it is now usually quicker to walk 3 blocks than to use the new stops. Transfers between trams now involves considerably longer walking distances including long walks doubling back to the cross street where the tram had already stopped for the red light and had time to let passengers off.
 

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^^ so you had to walk 3 blocks... boo hoo!!

invicible the government is already talking about increasnig tram stop spaceing from current average of 240m to ~400m that implies about 1/3rd of stops being removed.

obviously there'll always be cases of two stops in close proximity for a specific reason but generally its a promising outcome.
 
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