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Woody has just pointed out the the Kings Dock thread was being diverted into an interesting but unrelated debate on the wider dock system.

So could this thread become the place for all issues to do with the docks in general? That way we can also avoid warping the central docks thread into other issues too?

What is the best way to develop the docks in the future, what schemes should and should NOT have gone ahead... historically, in more recent times etc?

We all assume the future is for re use as someting else, but what is the maritime potential in future technologies that could see them brought back to life as trade and technology related.

Do we fill them in or do we preserve every body of water.. maybe creating even more?

How do we link the dock estate back in with the rest of the city... if we bother at all?

Can the south docks ever be rescued from the awful shite that went up on them in the 80s'?

What about energy uses and other applications.... ?

leisure, maritime related, tourism, history... just ramble.
 

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Don't fill in any more docks, and where possible restore if possible to make a feature out of them. The Kings dock is not going to be unfilled now so no point trying to get this done. As for the shite built on Herculaneum, it is going to be a long time before these developments are vacated, unless the area goes downhill due to bad construction/residents. Herculaneum should have had the taller proposals built, (nearby residents objections though), and maybe a higher quality restoration of a dock feature.

P.s. do the dock walls still exist in these filled in docks, or have they been removed and used as crushed base for motorways.
 

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JUXTAPOL said:
Don't fill in any more docks, and where possible restore if possible to make a feature out of them.
Sense at last.

The Kings dock is not going to be unfilled now so no point trying to get this done.
I would pull down all that has been erected so far, and unfill the docks.

As for the shite built on Herculaneum, it is going to be a long time before these developments are vacated, unless the area goes downhill due to bad construction/residents. Herculaneum should have had the taller proposals built, (nearby residents objections though), and maybe a higher quality restoration of a dock feature.
Stand on Grafton St and look down. A 10 floor building would come up to the height of Grafton St.

P.s. do the dock walls still exist in these filled in docks, or have they been removed and used as crushed base for motorways.
They do. The walls gave strength, so they were left.
 

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The Docks shouldn't be filled in, they should be protected in some form to make that a difficult thing to do. There may be cases where there is an over-riding case for doing so, but that should be exceptional. Too much has been lost.

It's just sad to see, and irrational bearing in mind that the one thing Liverpool has lots of is land. The entire heritage is neglected, and development should be geared towards use of the Docks. Just retaining them as workable waterways is one thing, but they need boats and things in them. (Incidentally, this is not an argument for the dreadful canal that is about to bisect the Pier Head - a place that also needs protecting, just as Docks do). Hideous and exploitative as it may be, at least Princes Dock demonstrates that developers can make a lot of money by keeping the Dock (more or less) in tact, without filling it in.

Maybe there could be a sort of "light rail" equivalent of the "heavy rail" here. The docks could made shallower, and locks taken out so they are basically just a single internal waterway, with just one lock for the whole system to join the sea? That way it would possible for tourist and commuter boats to use them, I imagine. Imagine taking a boat all the way from Herculaneum Dock to Canning, with (in the lower docks) beautiful tall blocks of flat and offices crowding the quays. I certainly hope the filled basins can be recovered and restored as water spaces.

Does anyone know the depth of the Docks, incidentally? I have a horror of Docks, a real fear, because of this idea that they are incredibly deep and dark and if you fell in, you would just drop down deeper and deeper, into an abyss. Shallower docks seem better to me, surely 10 feet deep is enough for the sort of craft that would be likely to use them? 15 feet maximum.
 

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Ok so next question on the old in filled docks, they are still there under some building sites, so are they intact, i.e. buildings must avoid the old walls underneath, or are new developments allowed to do what they want.

My point being that the old dock structures are still there and protected, so that in say 50 years when another development comes along to replace some of these horrible developments, then the old docks can be restored, reconfigured, to allow bigger more suitable developments alongside the restored dock features. I'm all for that.
 

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I don't know what to do with the docks. As working docks they looked great from a distance but as sterile open spaces framed by apartment blocks that poorly reference former warehouses they certainly don't float my boat. They are dead spaces, echoing a dead economy and displaying way too much red brick and blue window frames ... who thought of that look? They were designed for a function and if they are not to be filled in a new function needs to be found. Banning any more redbrick buildings would make a useful start as would turning Wapping / Sefton Street into a full on tree lined boulevard. The marina needs a complete makeover with a touch of the old warehouses that lined New Quay incorporated into the mix. There needs to be a shopping / entertainment centre (not mall) somewhere in the Queens Dock area and a pier at Brunswick. Some way of referencing the old Tate & Lyle silos needs to be found but this time with an art deco garnish. Brunswick business park should be returned to dockscape lined with some of the tallest skyscrapers in Europe.
 

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I had an idea that the dock between the Albert dock and the Strand could be turned into a huge swimming pool with a sort of glass dome over the top and a beach plonked in at one end?

An aqurium in another perhaps?
 

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Liverpool Docks - the Wonder We Have And Need To Preserve 100%

The Illustrated London News in 1886: "Liverpool, thanks to modern science and commercial enterprise, to the spirit and intelligence of the townsmen, and to the administration of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, has become a wonder of the world. It is the New York of Europe, a world-city rather than merely British provincial."

Writing in 1907 to commemorate the 700th anniversary of the granting of letters patent to the medieval borough, the historian Ramsay Muir hailed the Liverpool dock system, then over seven miles long, as indeed a modern wonder of the world. The mighty docks fronted the river: "in a vast sea wall as solid and enduring as the Pyramids, the most stupendous work of its kind that the will and power of man have ever created".


It is clear the preservation of this unique dock waterway system is imperative.

The Dock System

The whole Liverpool Dock system of:

1. Liverpool Docks,
2. Garston Docks (inside Liverpool)
3. Birkenhead Docks.


Should be viewed and treated as one – Liverpool Docks.

Few Historic Buildings Remain

The fact is apart from Central Docks, there is little historic warehousing left worth saving. Much damage was done in demolishing the unique warehouses at Waterloo, Dukes and other docks – tantamount to barbaric vandalism.

Only The Unique Dock Waterways Themselves Remain

So what is left? Only the docks themselves, with many dating from the 1700s and early 1800s. The Docks form a unique closed intertwining waterway dock system that rivals Amsterdam or even Venice in the waterways themselves. They cannot be compared with Amsterdam or Venice as they mainly hug the riverbank, apart from Birkenhead, but still are wide enough for substantial developments.

The Birkenhead Docks protrude about 4 miles inland making development of these waterways a very exciting prospect with Birkenhead and Wallasey having a superb waterway between the two towns with the potential to have high quality building on and over the waterways. The development of Birkenhead Docks has a greater potential to regenerate and raise the quality of the built environment on the Wirral than in Liverpool with land either side of the dock systems. The development of the waterways will have a greater impact on these two towns than in Liverpool. Foolishly, Bidston Dock, the dock furthest inland, has been filled in, displaying a distinct lack of foresight, vision or imagination of any degree. Typical.

Keep Historic Buildings and Walls

While Amsterdam is mainly old warehousing around the canals, and Venice old buildings too – many old warehouses too - Liverpool, when looking at the whole dock complex, has now, few historic buildings, so percentage-wise a pittance to Amsterdam and Venice. So, what historic buildings and walls we have we keep, that is simple and obvious.

Liverpool Docks Have Greater Potential

But where Liverpool is superior to Amsterdam and Venice, is the waterways can have imaginative modern buildings built around and over the waterways. This will give Liverpool/Birkenhead a very exciting and unique waterway system, with modern structures, unmatched in the world.

Docks Have Been Filled In

Sadly many Docks have been foolishly filled in - in many cases to build cheap, tatty looking buildings. Our legacy is being squandered by these Philistine acts. Most docks can be re-excavated to 2 metre depths, as Princes dock is – those built in the 1700s should be re-excavated, as many were filled to park cars on them. Yes, historic 1700s docks were filled to park cars on. Harrington and Toxteth Docks, in the South End, can easily be re-excavated and have advanced development around the docks. The same with Trafalgar and Victoria Docks in the North End. Boats should be an integral aspect of the dock waterways when development is complete - even water buses could be used on the waterways.

The Future

The prime aim to develop a unique city on water waterway system, by:


1. Not filling in any docks of any description.
2. Re-excavate exiting filled in Docks


This legacy should not be squandered

Once this is understood, developments can progress with a clear complete goal in mind. Then a world class city on the water will emerge.


-
 

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Urban Safari - each dock basin (drained) would form a sealed ecosystem, those representing temperate climate could be left open to the atmosphere, e.g., a northern European zone with wolves, bears badgers, foxes, rabbits, dormice (dormouses?) and whatnot all interacting with and predating upon each other and the ecological appropriate plant life in a perfectly accurate and fully functioning eco-system.

A north American area could be created with beavers, possums, raccoons, skunks and so on.

Other zones (that is emptied docks) would be covered with glass roofs; beneath would be controlled artificial climate allowing for, for example, a down-under marsupial area, or a subcontinental get up with tigers, elephants, cobras and mongooses. All the educationally informing and scientifically accurate preditor-prey interaction could be viewed safely from above while crossing walkways laid out over the glass.

Kind of like what the Eden Centre centre is for plants and this new sea-aquatic lifepods type thing that was turned away by Henshaw, we hear, and may now go to that famous littoral region called Bedfordshire will do for fish, but for critters.
 

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Awayo said:
Urban Safari - each dock basin (drained) would form a sealed ecosystem, those representing temperate climate could be left open to the atmosphere, e.g., a northern European zone with wolves, bears badgers, foxes, rabbits, dormice (dormouses?) and whatnot all interacting with and predating upon each other and the ecological appropriate plant life in a perfectly accurate and fully functioning eco-system.

A north American area could be created with beavers, possums, raccoons, skunks and so on.

Other zones (that is emptied docks) would be covered with glass roofs; beneath would be controlled artificial climate allowing for, for example, a down-under marsupial area, or a subcontinental get up with tigers, elephants, cobras and mongooses. All the educationally informing and scientifically accurate preditor-prey interaction could be viewed safely from above while crossing walkways laid out over the glass.

Kind of like what the Eden Centre centre is for plants and this new sea-aquatic lifepods type thing that was turned away by Henshaw, we hear, and may now go to that famous littoral region called Bedfordshire will do for fish, but for critters.
You are describing an underground zoo. Zoos are absolutely not what we need for the new century, not in the centre of Liverpool. We need offices, exhibition centres, conference centres, shops, flats, sporting facilities etc. Big dark pits full of bears and wolves are just not what regeneration is about.
 

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Accura said:
Make parks around them, and marinas in them.
I don't understand why there aren't boats in them. Does anyone know? Are they too small? What is the problem with Princes Dock that means no little sailing boats are bobbing around in it? Would they all be sucked under by that weird green algae, never to be seen again?
 

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liverpolitan said:
I don't understand why there aren't boats in them. Does anyone know? Are they too small? What is the problem with Princes Dock that means no little sailing boats are bobbing around in it? Would they all be sucked under by that weird green algae, never to be seen again?
Its because not enough people can afford them probably. Buying and running a boat is very expensive in itself (especially large fuel guzzling cruisers), but mooring rents are by far the worse aspect of boat ownership.
Its a great shame. Maritime leisure is something that I feel everyone should be able to persue, but not enough are able too.
 

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liverpolitan said:
You are describing an underground zoo. Zoos are absolutely not what we need for the new century, not in the centre of Liverpool. We need offices, exhibition centres, conference centres, shops, flats, sporting facilities etc. Big dark pits full of bears and wolves are just not what regeneration is about.
Aww. You're not going to like my idea for the African Zone, where customers willing to pay top dollar could go big game hunting in Canada Dock.
 

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Now theres an idea. Pump out one of the basins, seal it off, fill it with saltwater and put 5 Blue Sharks in there! They tried that at Preston Dock's once.
 

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A real river city ..... with a very blured edge?

Why can`t we have developments reaching out into the docks or even into the river for that matter and across the dock roads.....squares with fountains.

`Talls` with their foundations in the docks and the river - bridges and piers and waterborn traffic, floating markets and resturants all inter linked and inter dependant.

Inter spacial maritime and aquarian.....with a touch of the sea horse.

And the `Liverbird` of course.....check out the `City coat of arms.`

:) :cheers:
 

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"Leisure in the City....."

In addition to the above and an extension to previous posts - Liverpool has lost contact with the `River - the water` (which is just one reason why I support the `Pier Head - Canal Link`..... preferably without `locks` and instantly navigatable.)

The Liverpool beaches have all been contained within the docks and with no offence to Birkenhead / Wallasey - Egremont, New Brighton or Hall Road, Ainsdale or Formby etc (and I have a fondness for `Moreton` - sea as far as the eye can see.....) Liverpool needs to have a seafront playground that makes contact with the river as best as possible.

Should it be some sort of `Docks / Winter Garden - Centre Parcs?`
Should it be some sort of `resort` with hotels, bars and resturants in it`s own right or just some sort of `Liverpool water / pleasure gardens?`
 

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Awayo said:
Urban Safari - each dock basin (drained) would form a sealed ecosystem, those representing temperate climate could be left open to the atmosphere, e.g., a northern European zone with wolves, bears badgers, foxes, rabbits, dormice (dormouses?) and whatnot all interacting with and predating upon each other and the ecological appropriate plant life in a perfectly accurate and fully functioning eco-system.

A north American area could be created with beavers, possums, raccoons, skunks and so on.

Other zones (that is emptied docks) would be covered with glass roofs; beneath would be controlled artificial climate allowing for, for example, a down-under marsupial area, or a subcontinental get up with tigers, elephants, cobras and mongooses. All the educationally informing and scientifically accurate preditor-prey interaction could be viewed safely from above while crossing walkways laid out over the glass.
:hahaha: :hahaha:
 

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Pietari said:
In addition to the above and an extension to previous posts - Liverpool has lost contact with the `River - the water` (which is just one reason why I support the `Pier Head - Canal Link`..... preferably without `locks` and instantly navigatable.)

The Liverpool beaches have all been contained within the docks and with no offence to Birkenhead / Wallasey - Egremont, New Brighton or Hall Road, Ainsdale or Formby etc (and I have a fondness for `Moreton` - sea as far as the eye can see.....) Liverpool needs to have a seafront playground that makes contact with the river as best as possible.
The population of Liverpool never had real contact with the docks or the river. The Dock Rd, high walls and security effectively kept them away from any water.

I was born within yards of Brunswick Dock, yet had no contact with water, the river or the ships only yards away. I could see the funnels of the ships over the sheds: Palm Line, Elder Dempster, Harrison Line, etc, hear the horns, smell the grain being unloaded at the Coburg silo, yet had no direct visual contact. I had to walk to Grafton St and look over the cliffs at the Herculaneum Dock or down to the Pier Head to see any water or complete ships. Ian Naine in his 1960s BBC programme Naine’s North, make this observation about the whole Mersey Estuary – that in only a few points can the public gain access to the river and that it was largely given over to industry excluding the people.

We now have a chance to bring the people in direct contact with the river and the water and solidify the two.
 
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